Gaza

[Utisz]

Just wondering where we stand on this by now. Perhaps intp.live should write an editorial.

(Saoirse don Phalaistín)

[Catoptric]

Note: I somehow ended up posting this weirdly (I know I edited it but don't recall it having duplicate content. . . Not sure what happened, but I'll try to clear it up.)


Regarding Palestine (Israel and Gaza)

Einstein would refer to Palestine (most likely not referring to the Muslim population, but rather the region as a whole,) as ending in terrorism building up from within itself.

Einstein's letter.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210 ... -einstein/

17 minute video from 2018 about protestors and a medic being shot and killed (this would have followed after an IDF soldier killed a Palestinian who was already on the ground after stabbing someone, who was arrested and made a public spectacle to appease the protests.)


Israel has done it's best to eradicate Palestinians from their ancestral homeland (thousands of years as a settlement) and have been continually shot and killed after bulldozing attempted rebuilds (as a protest) without being given any alternatives that seemed conducive, and which several such instances which are shown in 'No Other Land' (Yuval Abraham, Basel Adra, 2024) a Palestine Documentary

And then:

Historically Qatar has been the funder for Hamas which instigated the indifferent treatment towards the settlements and lead up to genocidal killings of families as well as the 12 ambulance drivers who were targeted by the same soldier group responsible for such killings of entire families. It didn't help that videos surface from the music concert showing a woman with all her limbs broken where it's believed she was being used as a goat. . .

The video from when 12 (15?) Paramedic were killed in the most recent killing https://nyti.ms/4cXucGh

Rafah paramedic massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre

When supply aid was being brought in by similar vans, the Israelis targeted the civilians just as they did in 2018. The boat that Greta Thunberg was going to be on was targeted in international waters with several large shells that left foot wide holes in the boat. The same embargo that people from Yemen were trying to help with is what Trump was responding, and which Signal chats were praising the strike that killed people, the majority of whom were civilians.

Donald Trump wears golf clothes and MAGA hat while watching Yemen airstrike he’s just ordered
https://metro.co.uk/2025/03/16/donald-t ... -22734609/


Trump clearly knew of Qatar's connection to funding such attacks from Hamas (and either Qatar was setting the stage for the takeover of the region by Israel, and Trump by "negotiating" may just be creating his "peace zone" for privatization and for oligarchs in strategic positions throughout the region which will divide the Middle East against Yemen, Iran, and perhaps Pakistan; and Israel has been dismissive of acknowledging culpability in the treatment of the Palestinians, and yet Qatar is also going to be the location of the future largest US air base in the Middle East.

Trump’s embrace of Syria and its jihadist-turned-president ( Abu Mohammed al-Jolani ) could shake up the Middle East
https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/14/middleea ... lysis-intl

Watching Trump from afar, Israel fears being left out of a new Middle East it helped create
https://apnews.com/article/mideast-trum ... f1d6588334

*****
Israel, which still views Syria as a security threat and had urged Trump to keep the sanctions in place, was ignored, as it apparently was on a number of recent U.S. initiatives in the region, from the ongoing talks with Iran to the ceasefire with Yemen’s Houthi rebels. Asked Friday if he knew Israel opposes U.S. recognition of Syria’s new government, Trump replied: “I don’t know, I didn’t ask them about that.”
******

And of course Afghanistan and Trumps transactional racket (much as he put CIA asset's lives at risk and probably had leaked intel on numerous occasion to many enemies of the state,) will just as well be conveniently forgotten about like most of the junk-cabinet responses.

Afghans in US feel betrayed as Trump ends deportation protection
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-854117

So I don't really know, but it's evident that the people who hold the power and influence over the region have a lot of "collateral damage." What appear to be alliances are probably just "quid pro quos" where the most corrupt and disgusting people are saber rattling to see what they can get away with.


Just yesterday:
54 people killed in overnight airstrikes on southern Gaza city, hospital says
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... ital-says/



Plenty of evidence makes Israelis seem no different from the Sudanese RSF committing genocide in Darfur (I posted some stuff on the What are you Watching page,) and this focuses on the 'Indonesian Hospital' serving the aid of those affected by Israeli strikes on civilians (claimed to be used by Hamas which is blatantly false, since Israel lies routinely.)
https://nyti.ms/3z8ZWbN


Another one where people register in the "deconfliction zone" and still get attacked by IDF. . .
https://nyti.ms/3xULdjR

[Utisz]

^^ A drop in the ocean.

Finally seems untenable now, the current situation. Starving people is very bad PR. They won't show a child partially crushed under concrete, or decapitated by shrapnel, or suffocating slowly during hours or days in a pocket of air under a collapsed building, but they will show on the bulletin living children wasting away, ribcages protruding in the daylight, without pixellation.

[Catoptric]

^^ A drop in the ocean.

Finally seems untenable now, the current situation. Starving people is very bad PR. They won't show a child partially crushed under concrete, or decapitated by shrapnel, or suffocating slowly during hours or days in a pocket of air under a collapsed building, but they will show on the bulletin living children wasting away, ribcages protruding in the daylight, without pixellation.

I cleared up the post I made (it seems it had a duplicate draft accidentally added. . .)


It is very evil and I'm assuming Trump is such a psychopath he only evaluates how he wants to look by averting his allegiances, and perhaps as part of his intent to allow the destruction of Gaza, destroyed things like USAID (which are now being controlled from within the State department while allowing food aid to rot in a large storage building, with no apparent intention of distributing it) and the Houthi rebels were trying to give food aid to Gaza (and even if it included weapons they might evidently need by the looks of it.)

The thing that's odd is that Trump was targeting those rebels with drone strikes (though killing far more civilians in the process, and from their Signal chats, were laughing about it; the very thing that they used about the Palestinians celebrating the attacks on the Israelis--after they themselves had been shot and killed and fucked over for decades--as propaganda for justifying the bombing of their buildings.

Of course it's evil on both sides, but it becomes apparent that much of their conflict was in not speaking the same language, motivations, religion, and feeling that the ends justify the means.


I'm going to add:

The idea that Trump quickly turned on a dime with his approach to Israel and the Middle East, has not gone unnoticed (though mainstream media probably ignored it.)

As Trump was getting elected Qatar was already in the process of creating their resort (which the US media had labeled a "$5.5 billion Trump Golf Resort," even if that's not what it was initially or ever, apart from some agreement to slap his name onto a hotel along with being given a $400 million jet that is an albatross that can't land in most places around the world, and which safety might be of concern considering it's a Boeing.)

I've seen the $3 billion price tag being attributed to Trump as an investment (whether or not he stepped in after Qatar already had Saudis co-investing, as it seems to have come up in 2024.)

(Nov-Dec 2024) Land of Legends Qatar, Qatari Diar and FTG Development $3B major project
https://www.mepmiddleeast.com/projects/ ... or-project

(May 2025) Trump’s company to invest $3B in Qatar for major golf resort project
https://www.turkiyetoday.com/business/t ... ct-152171/


Snopes attempts to make sense of it
https://www.snopes.com/news/2025/05/16/ ... lf-course/


It seems he was merely looking at Gaza as a prospective investment project, but quickly looked at Qatar to fulfill his ego ambitions.

When most Presidents sell off their assets and investments so as not to have conflict of interest in decision making, the kakistocracy is alive and well in the USA, and it will be a difficult turd to flush.

And currently some legislation is being passed that will allow elected officials incompetence to go unchecked and unpunished (even more than it already has.)


**********


All the while this hispanic guy from Chicago shot up some people at a Jewish Museum (originally the news said it was an Embassy, though it's not) in Washington DC.

Jewish community in shock after deadly shooting outside Capital Jewish Museum in DC
https://wjla.com/news/local/israeli-cou ... -netanyahu

And hence violence begets violence.

And yet, the "preferred" narrative is just calling it "antisemitism" when the only news agency that seems to called it what it is, has acknowledged that it is more of a political statement against the government of Israel.


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/5/2 ... er-victims

If he targeted them because they worked at an Embassy, this is more of a political statement. If he targeted people because they were Jewish, specifically, than that might be seen as a race crime (but he is protesting the genocide of people in Palestine.)

And Trump knows about the genocide and did his best to encourage it. . . He needs another golf and resort investment. Needs to squeeze out those Gazan's like olives or grapes for his embezzlement and money laundering operations (just like the Casinos he was proven to have used in such a way. . .) Go figure.

Even the more conservative (not referring to political party) are anti-Zionist, because they recognize genocide when they see it.
In no way am I supporting what happened at the Museum, but I am clarifying what the narrative is being sold as, when it isn't the message that was being made.

Also, these news reports are always filled with scam/spam bots (Brave New World. . . )

[Senseye]

It's such a clusterf*ck now I don't see any good way for it to end. I figure both sides hate each other to the extent they won't ever get along (I realize this has been the case pretty much from the start).

Hindsight being 20/20, while the Palestinians got a bit of a raw deal in 1948, if had they just taken a two state solution back then, and decided to co-exist peacefully with the Jews, everybody would have been better off. Heck we might even have an uneasy peace.

Now, a two state solution seems completely off the table and Israel is acting rather badly. Hamas is not helping though with their intractability. I don't really see how the hostages are helping them, they should try letting them all go and seeing how that influences global opinion. They remind me a bit of the black night in Monty Python who after getting his arms and legs cut off is yelling "Is that all you've got? Come back here and I will bite you on the knee!". Sometimes you just have to admit defeat. Oct 7 did not work out for them as planned, so time to switch gears. I'd suggest a Nelson Mandela/Gandi passive resistance approach might result in a better outcome (as opposed to terrorism) but I don't know that Islamic culture would allow for such an approach.

[Utisz]

It's such a clusterf*ck now I don't see any good way for it to end. I figure both sides hate each other to the extent they won't ever get along (I realize this has been the case pretty much from the start).

The objective is not to get along, but to stop the bloodshed while ensuring basic dignity. This at least they managed in Northern Ireland / the north of Ireland, arguably. The goal is not to stop the hate, but rather to stop the killing.

Hindsight being 20/20, while the Palestinians got a bit of a raw deal in 1948, if had they just taken a two state solution back then, and decided to co-exist peacefully with the Jews, everybody would have been better off. Heck we might even have an uneasy peace.

Now, a two state solution seems completely off the table and Israel is acting rather badly. Hamas is not helping though with their intractability. I don't really see how the hostages are helping them, they should try letting them all go and seeing how that influences global opinion. They remind me a bit of the black night in Monty Python who after getting his arms and legs cut off is yelling "Is that all you've got? Come back here and I will bite you on the knee!". Sometimes you just have to admit defeat. Oct 7 did not work out for them as planned, so time to switch gears. I'd suggest a Nelson Mandela/Gandi passive resistance approach might result in a better outcome (as opposed to terrorism) but I don't know that Islamic culture would allow for such an approach.

While I understand where you are coming from, I largely disagree. The Palestinians in Gaza tried the "passive resistance approach" with the Right to Return marches in 2018/2019, which were almost entirely peaceful on the Palestinian side, and where Israeli snipers killed over 200 Palestinians, without any Israeli casualties. But internationally the Israeli atrocities received very limited coverage, because it did not fit conventional narratives, so basically these people died in vain. The Palestinians turned the other cheek for 18 months, on a level far beyond Civil Rights marches in (for example) the U.S. and the north of Ireland, and nothing resulted from it, except hundreds dead and thousands injured from Israeli sniper fire. Essentially hardly anybody, internationally, gave a fuck.

A two state solution may or may not be off the table, but I think it will increasingly become the preferable realistic option for Israeli Zionists. I think there are essentially only three ways forward: (1) continued apartheid or ethnic cleansing or genocide towards establishing a "greater Israel", (2) a two-state solution, (3) a one-state democratic solution with one person, one vote.

The international community increasingly does not have the stomach for live-streamed apartheid nor for ethnic cleansing nor for genocide, and pressure from ICC/ICJ/legacy is slowly starting to turn career politicians who have paid lip-service to Zionism AND the two-state solution against this goal. Israel is increasingly become a rogue state similar to apartheid-era South Africa, and something has to give. The pretentiousness of the right-wing Israeli PR machine is not helping matters, where they brazenly treat the international audience as fucking dumbasses. Option 3 would see Palestine/Israel become a (slight-)majority Arab state, and would not be acceptable to the Zionist powers that be. So the only other option left for the medium term is a two-state solution, where Israel probably gets way more than just, but have to pull most settlers out.

In that sense, October 7th will surely move the dial in a way that "passive resistance approach" never could, and never did, but with an atrocious cost. But I believe that the unfair way things were positioned, moving the dial was always going to require an atrocious cost for Palestinians to win the PR battle. In that sense, I think (wish) that on October 7th, Hamas et al. should have focussed on attacking military targets and avoid atrocities against Israeli civilians, taking POWs instead of hostages, and I think this could have achieved similar results with much fewer innocent casualties, but in the end, Israel holds the cards, and the only way to progress was going to be some event in which the atrocities were so asymmetric so as to overcome the Overton window. But I think/hope there is a reckoning coming, that will include a reflection of the role of mainstream media and politics in the ongoing genocide, like Biden lying through his senile fucking face about seeing photos of decapitated babies on October 7th, manufacturing consent for mass murder.

Here's a "fun" game for those who want to try it.

[Senseye]

A two state solution may or may not be off the table, but I think it will increasingly become the preferable realistic option for Israeli Zionists. I think there are essentially only three ways forward: (1) continued apartheid or ethnic cleansing or genocide towards establishing a "greater Israel", (2) a two-state solution, (3) a one-state democratic solution with one person, one vote.

The international community increasingly does not have the stomach for live-streamed apartheid nor for ethnic cleansing nor for genocide, and pressure from ICC/ICJ/legacy is slowly starting to turn career politicians who have paid lip-service to Zionism AND the two-state solution against this goal. Israel is increasingly become a rogue state similar to apartheid-era South Africa, and something has to give. The pretentiousness of the right-wing Israeli PR machine is not helping matters, where they brazenly treat the international audience as fucking dumbasses. Option 3 would see Palestine/Israel become a (slight-)majority Arab state, and would not be acceptable to the Zionist powers that be. So the only other option left for the medium term is a two-state solution, where Israel probably gets way more than just, but have to pull most settlers out.

In that sense, October 7th will surely move the dial in a way that "passive resistance approach" never could, and never did, but with an atrocious cost. But I believe that the unfair way things were positioned, moving the dial was always going to require an atrocious cost for Palestinians to win the PR battle.

I'm in general agreement with you but it seems we are tracking more towards your option #1 at the moment. Israel is talking about re-occupying Gaza permanently and they are also fragmenting the west bank more and more. The international community seems rather impotent these days (I could say the same thing about the situation in Ukraine). The UN is all full of talk and condemnations but they are a rather toothless tiger. And with the US on Israel's side, widespread sanctions and the like will probably never happen.

I think a two state solution would be the best. Now that Gaza is pretty much rubble I would think it might be a good time to relocate all the Palestinians to the West Bank, but in this case the West Bank should go back to the 1968 armistice lines and be a contiguous region (all Israeli settlements removed - kind of a trade off for Gaza).

Alas, no one is interested in my opinion. I also think an independent Palestine would probably be a pretty poor state, akin to Lebanon, so I don't know how well that would actually work. Terrorist groups tend to thrive politically in those kinds of states, which would simply lead to a new conflict. Still, it seems a better option than the current apartheid state, and I think we both agree option #3 would never be acceptable to the Israelis.

I realize passive resistance hasn't worked that well for the Palestinians, but then again neither has armed resistance. And terrorism generally doesn't play well with international opinion. Its kind of gives Israel a get out of jail free card for some of their violence. Especially, since Oct 7. I'm not sure if Hamas was banking on more international outrage constraining Israel, or perhaps more military support from the wider Arab states, but neither seem forthcoming. Also, Hamas seems to be willing to 'martyr' pretty much every Gaza civilian, whether they like it or not, so I have little good to say about them either.

[Utisz]

I'm in general agreement with you but it seems we are tracking more towards your option #1 at the moment. Israel is talking about re-occupying Gaza permanently and they are also fragmenting the west bank more and more. The international community seems rather impotent these days (I could say the same thing about the situation in Ukraine). The UN is all full of talk and condemnations but they are a rather toothless tiger. And with the US on Israel's side, widespread sanctions and the like will probably never happen.

The international community is very obviously becoming more vocal against Israel. I think in the past month or so, the Overton window has shifted in countries like the U.S and the U.K., and criticism of Israel is no longer automatically antisemetic, and the reflexive defenses appealing to antisemitism (in relation, for example, to leaders like Macron) are becoming increasingly tired and transparent. This is already a big shift. Even amongst the purest political classes (a lot of international Zionism is just "realpolitik") there is a lot of future-proofing going on now as people realise that Israel (or at least the "Netenyahu government") is becoming a sinking pariah ship. It is becoming more and more intractable to argue that Israel is not commiting genocide.

The fact that even German politicians are voicing concern about Israel's policies is an indication that historical favoritism towards Israel does not outweigh (in terms of political exigency) tens of thousands of dead or starving children, even if they are brown and Muslim.

I think a two state solution would be the best. Now that Gaza is pretty much rubble I would think it might be a good time to relocate all the Palestinians to the West Bank, but in this case the West Bank should go back to the 1968 armistice lines and be a contiguous region (all Israeli settlements removed - kind of a trade off for Gaza).

Alas, no one is interested in my opinion. I also think an independent Palestine would probably be a pretty poor state, akin to Lebanon, so I don't know how well that would actually work. Terrorist groups tend to thrive politically in those kinds of states, which would simply lead to a new conflict. Still, it seems a better option than the current apartheid state, and I think we both agree option #3 would never be acceptable to the Israelis.

A one-state non-apartheid solution is probably the fairest solution, even though I am not sure it is realistic (because most Israelis insist in their God-given right to a "Jewish state", even though most don't believe in God, and they have a material advantage).

Moving Gazans to the West Bank is ethnic cleansing. Gaza is the home of many Gazans, and the rest are refugees from "Mandatory Palenstine" that have a right to return (independently of the fact that Israel will not allow this). They are not pieces on a chess board, but rather human beings that maintain basic rights under international laws.

I realize passive resistance hasn't worked that well for the Palestinians, but then again neither has armed resistance. And terrorism generally doesn't play well with international opinion. Its kind of gives Israel a get out of jail free card for some of their violence. Especially, since Oct 7. I'm not sure if Hamas was banking on more international outrage constraining Israel, or perhaps more military support from the wider Arab states, but neither seem forthcoming. Also, Hamas seems to be willing to 'martyr' pretty much every Gaza civilian, whether they like it or not, so I have little good to say about them either.

Israel is in the worst position right now, internationally, that it has been possibly even since its inception. It is consistently becoming more of a pariah state each day. In that sense, October 7th will achieve something that passive resistance never could, nor did, but with an awful cost. This is comparable to similar struggles against occupation elsewhere. Again, there were atrocities on October 7th that were counterproductive, but from a Palestinan perspective, it was an impossible situation.

I really don't agree that Hamas are willing to martyr everyone in Gaza, but they are willing to martyr some, and themselves, yes. But I think that October 7th will prove decisive in terms of a better future for Palestinians, again by paying an awful cost to overcome Zionist tendencies in western powers, and a general Islamophobia post 9/11. But I don't think there was any way to move the needle without paying a massive cost.

That said, again, the needle has certainly moved now, by giving the Isreali government a "pretext" to commit an ongoing live-streamed genocide. There is no going back from that for Israel. Western politicians cannot whitewash this anymore, nor maintin their credibility while defending the images that anyone can find on social media. It will also be a turning point for traditional media, and for the influence of Zionist lobbies.

[Senseye]

The international community is very obviously becoming more vocal against Israel. I think in the past month or so, the Overton window has shifted in countries like the U.S and the U.K., and criticism of Israel is no longer automatically antisemetic, and the reflexive defenses appealing to antisemitism (in relation, for example, to leaders like Macron) are becoming increasingly tired and transparent. This is already a big shift. Even amongst the purest political classes (a lot of international Zionism is just "realpolitik") there is a lot of future-proofing going on now as people realise that Israel (or at least the "Netenyahu government") is becoming a sinking pariah ship. It is becoming more and more intractable to argue that Israel is not commiting genocide.

True, but talk is cheap. I am not seeing any actions, or even threats of actions (sanctions for example).

A one-state non-apartheid solution is probably the fairest solution, even though I am not sure it is realistic (because most Israelis insist in their God-given right to a "Jewish state", even though most don't believe in God, and they have a material advantage).

Moving Gazans to the West Bank is ethnic cleansing. Gaza is the home of many Gazans, and the rest are refugees from "Mandatory Palenstine" that have a right to return (independently of the fact that Israel will not allow this). They are not pieces on a chess board, but rather human beings that maintain basic rights under international laws.

A one state non apartheid solution is the fairest in theory. In practice, if the Palestinians ever had equal voting rights, they would take control of the government and re-implement an apartheid state with the Jews being the second class citizens this time round. And the Jewish people would never allow that risk. There is simply too much hatred between the two groups for peaceful coexistence in a single state IMO.

Moving Gazans to the west bank is technically ethnic cleansing I suppose, but if Gaza is just a relatively small strip of rubble after this conflict, the West Bank is not that far away. Being glued to a small strip of land psychologically is silly. Especially, if a true Palestinian state was established just a few hundred km away.

Israel is in the worst position right now, internationally, that it has been possibly even since its inception. It is consistently becoming more of a pariah state each day. In that sense, October 7th will achieve something that passive resistance never could, nor did, but with an awful cost. This is comparable to similar struggles against occupation elsewhere. Again, there were atrocities on October 7th that were counterproductive, but from a Palestinan perspective, it was an impossible situation.

I really don't agree that Hamas are willing to martyr everyone in Gaza, but they are willing to martyr some, and themselves, yes. But I think that October 7th will prove decisive in terms of a better future for Palestinians, again by paying an awful cost to overcome Zionist tendencies in western powers, and a general Islamophobia post 9/11. But I don't think there was any way to move the needle without paying a massive cost.

That said, again, the needle has certainly moved now, by giving the Isreali government a "pretext" to commit an ongoing live-streamed genocide. There is no going back from that for Israel. Western politicians cannot whitewash this anymore, nor maintain their credibility while defending the images that anyone can find on social media. It will also be a turning point for traditional media, and for the influence of Zionist lobbies.

I am not as optimistic as you this will end well for the Gazans/Palestinians. If Gaza is re-occupied, life there will be more miserable than ever. This will probably result in more terrorist attacks down the line, and the whole cycle of violence will repeat.

Plus, the West Bank is eroding all the time. I believe Israel strategy is to eventually make life so miserable for Palestinians that they leave. This may take decades, but I think it will eventually happen, barring a drastic change in international position (i.e. the US will have to stop supporting Israel). That may happen "some day" but no time soon as far as I can see.

[Catoptric]

Israel intercepts Gaza-bound aid ship, detaining Greta Thunberg and other prominent activists
- https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/08/middleea ... g-intl-hnk

Israel sprayed a White Substance (possibly paint, though the person reporting it before the communication was jammed, suggests it might have been something different, perhaps even some kind of chemical warfare.)
https://deepnewz.com/middle-east/israel ... n-577f02ac

They sent a boat of Israeli children to gaslight the Madleen (shouting to Greta, how they will be coming for her.)
- https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-sen ... arre-stunt

The same boat that is heading there way is in control of the same Navy branch (secretive Shayetet 13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shayetet_13 which have a weird bat insignia for some reason) , responsible for the Gaza flotilla murders in 2010 (where they knew who they were prior to engaging them. . .)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Historical precedence of unlawful actions from Israel (USS Liberty was attacked.)
- https://zeteo.com/p/coverup-survivors-i ... ty-answers


********


Five Israeli Soldiers Killed, 17 Injured as Israel Issues New Evacuation Orders in Gaza
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/five ... %2C%202025

Will ICE protests have a similar fate (some protestors have already have reported being shot with lethal ammo. This would have been before setting fires to cars.) And it looks like a memorandum was passed to for considering peotestors domestic terrorists (no matter what they do. Martial Law in other words. . .)