Historical Fragments

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Ferrus
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Historical Fragments

Post by Ferrus » Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:01 pm

Starter for 10, for a thread about small historical findings that don't deserve their own thread:

Etruscan paintings.
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Julius_Van_Der_Beak » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:33 pm



I had no idea a great kilt was so multifunctional.

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Ferrus
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Ferrus » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:37 pm

Whilst reading the Song of Roland I stumbled across what some think is the first reference to the name California in the 11th century (!).

https://newpsalmanazar.wordpress.com/ta ... of-roland/
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Ferrus
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Ferrus » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:43 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 58988.html

Nazi "super cows" is a great story too.
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MoneyJungle
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by MoneyJungle » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:29 am

Ferrus wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:37 pm
Whilst reading the Song of Roland I stumbled across what some think is the first reference to the name California in the 11th century (!).

https://newpsalmanazar.wordpress.com/ta ... of-roland/
Interesting! From my Burgess translation:

‘Beloved Roland, valiant man, noble youth,
When I am in my chapel in Aix,
My vassals will come and ask me for news.
The news I shall give will be terrible and cruel;
My nephew, who conquered so much for me, is dead.
The Saxons will rise up against me,
And the Hungarians, Bulgars and so many heathen peoples,
Romans, Apulians and all those from Palermo
And Africans and those from Califerne: <————————
Then my troubles and my suffering will commence.
Who will lead my armies with such might,
Now the he is dead who has always been our captain?
O, fair land of France, how bereft you are!
My grief is so great that I no longer wish to live.’
He begins to tear at his white beard;
With both hands he pulls the hair from his head.
A hundred thousand Franks fall to the ground in a faint.

I infer that it’s somewhere on the African continent outside of the traditional Roman province of Africa (although I think the whole continent was colloquially Africa, especially by the 1100s) but I guess we’ll never know unless someone stumbles onto some old documents. Maybe it’s a place the author thought existed in Charlemagne’s time or even a fiction for musicality. Fascinating read, SoR.

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Ferrus
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Ferrus » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:41 am

MoneyJungle wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:29 am
Ferrus wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:37 pm
Whilst reading the Song of Roland I stumbled across what some think is the first reference to the name California in the 11th century (!).

https://newpsalmanazar.wordpress.com/ta ... of-roland/
Interesting! From my Burgess translation:

‘Beloved Roland, valiant man, noble youth,
When I am in my chapel in Aix,
My vassals will come and ask me for news.
The news I shall give will be terrible and cruel;
My nephew, who conquered so much for me, is dead.
The Saxons will rise up against me,
And the Hungarians, Bulgars and so many heathen peoples,
Romans, Apulians and all those from Palermo
And Africans and those from Califerne: <————————
Then my troubles and my suffering will commence.
Who will lead my armies with such might,
Now the he is dead who has always been our captain?
O, fair land of France, how bereft you are!
My grief is so great that I no longer wish to live.’
He begins to tear at his white beard;
With both hands he pulls the hair from his head.
A hundred thousand Franks fall to the ground in a faint.

I infer that it’s somewhere on the African continent outside of the traditional Roman province of Africa (although I think the whole continent was colloquially Africa, especially by the 1100s) but I guess we’ll never know unless someone stumbles onto some old documents. Maybe it’s a place the author thought existed in Charlemagne’s time or even a fiction for musicality. Fascinating read, SoR.
The location is unknown still. In any case Montalvo seems to have been inspired by the mystery to create his mythical land in the sequel to Don Quixote's favourite Amadis the Gaul which of course then took a life of its own with the conquistadores.
Last edited by Ferrus on Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Buttrock as zen
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Buttrock as zen » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:26 pm

My guess is that Califerne somehow derives from Caliphate, referring to the abbasids. The scope of the passage begins in Europe and expands outward and southward. The main muslims in Roland are the Saracens but the Abbasid caliphate existed around the time both of the events in the story and the writing of the text, though they were centered in the Middle East.

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Ferrus
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Ferrus » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:14 pm

Buttrock as zen wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:26 pm
My guess is that Califerne somehow derives from Caliphate, referring to the abbasids. The scope of the passage begins in Europe and expands outward and southward. The main muslims in Roland are the Saracens but the Abbasid caliphate existed around the time both of the events in the story and the writing of the text, though they were centered in the Middle East.
Indeed which is why most etymologies of California trace it to the same Arabic word as caliph, which us a surprising etymology.

Another thing which I found confusing was why in Spanish rollercoasters are 'Russian mountains'. Well, there were actual things called Russian mountains that were the predecessors of modern rollercoasters using tabogons on hills made from ice:

https://blooloop.com/uncategorised/in-d ... mountains/

I actually have memories as a child of the wooden rollercoaster in Margate mentioned here.
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Roger Mexico
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Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Roger Mexico » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:30 am

100th anniversary of the Kronstadt rebellion.


https://roarmag.org/essays/seventeen-dr ... X8UcUVIw_g

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Re: Historical Fragments

Post by Julius_Van_Der_Beak » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:47 pm

Roger Mexico wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:30 am
100th anniversary of the Kronstadt rebellion.


https://roarmag.org/essays/seventeen-dr ... X8UcUVIw_g
Here's another good article about it:

the-kronstadt-uprising-a-full-chronology-and-archive-including-a-view-from-within-the-revolt

Haven't gone through all of the chronology portion yet, though.

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