Critical Race Theory

[djm]

It is ok to stop and search minorities based on their race because as members of that race they are more likely to be criminals and so assuming they are is not racist.

There is no assumption, just a higher likelihood. The problem is worse in certain areas of London, which is why they have that policy there. You do not see the same tactics in other parts of the country.

I got stopped last year, and received a fine for not having an up to date MOT (I had forgotten which is a common issue for me, unfortunately). I was stopped as I had a 16 year old tatty car and was driving past a rough estate. That was clearly profiling, someone driving an old banger in a poor area is more likely to have avoided paying tax, insurance or MOT. I sadly had to scrap my beloved old car (had done 240,000 miles in it), but driving through the same area in my new car I would be very unlikely to be stopped. Sensible policing.

It is worth stating how different policing here is to the US. Our police are not armed, being stopped is not a stressful or particularly dramatic process. I imagine getting pulled over in the US would scare me.

[djm]

However, it is not ok to assume a white male is racist or sexist, or even privileged because that is racist. Do I have this right?

Yes you have that exactly right, it is extremely racist. We should be judging people on their situation and actions not their race, gender or any other immutable characteristic.

[djm]

I really don't see any movement within the white working classes now which is trying to do this, except a few isolated philanthropists trying to encourage entrepreneurship. And honestly I don't know what happened to it, except that a kind of benign paternalism which has always existed in British society for centuries ended up smothering it. On top of that the education system seems to have abandoned rigorous teaching of STEM subjects, which is a disaster as by my own experience I have seen that software engineering, by the standards of other professions is very meritocratic. The same from what I've heard applies to other engineering disciplines like mechanical engineering etc. which is why many working class students, the first from their generation to go to universities in the 60s would offer study engineering as it was a path to a decent way out of their class. There is a telling anecdote that in the 80s Oxford students would call working class students "Northern Chemists". The fact that many immigrant groups do well, who in the first generation don't have much income but still end up pushing their kids to be doctors or lawyers or engineers suggests that the issue is not only about money, it is about the cultural attitudes. In working class families there is a real sense of shame for excelling, a tendency to push everyone down to the same level, the tall poppy syndrome, a feeling that it's best not to stand out. I still feel the grammar schools, for all their faults, could have been reformed to allow more working class students a chance in and a good education that encouraged excellence, an environment with a different ethos, rather than creating a postcard apartheid with comprehensive schools which has been the case for the last 50 years that under the guise of egalitarianism has just entrenched social division. That, as well as failing less academically orientated students the chance to be more economically successful under decent technical schools that teach industrial skills that could actually have made the UK competitive on the international market the way German apprenticeship-gymnasium system does. It goes hand in hand with the way in which for many decades both traditional big businesses in the UK, and the government (and the unions when they used to have influence) all failed to probably invest in long term goals or plans, always chasing a quick win over investment in people and technology.

You make some very interesting points here Ferrus. I think the reason that the Tory's have gained a lot of voters in working-class areas is due to them successfully pitching a more positive possible future. A lot of working-class people are aspirational, they want the opportunity to improve their lot and will work at it. Thatcher tapped into this, Blair tapped into this, and now Boris is.

The Labour party has become the party of students, middle class 'intellectuals' and well paid public sector workers. They sneer at the working classes and want to change them rather than give them agency. They dislike Britain, they dislike family, they dislike working-class culture, and if they dare to not vote for them they paint them as Neandathals.

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

However, it is not ok to assume a white male is racist or sexist, or even privileged because that is racist. Do I have this right?

Yes you have that exactly right, it is extremely racist. We should be judging people on their situation and actions not their race, gender or any other immutable characteristic.

woosh

[Utisz]

Link from the most left-wing broadsheet in the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 96761.html

Link to an article about the actual victims of knife crime in the community calling for more stop and search.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/j ... 58136.html

Link from London Evening Standard showing how successful stop and search is.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/p ... 73986.html

Okay, but as mentioned before, the statistics show the only 16% of stops and searches in 2019-2020 were related to offensive weapons, so this is nowhere near sufficient to explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

[djm]

Link from the most left-wing broadsheet in the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 96761.html

Link to an article about the actual victims of knife crime in the community calling for more stop and search.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/j ... 58136.html

Link from London Evening Standard showing how successful stop and search is.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/p ... 73986.html

Okay, but as mentioned before, the statistics show the only 16% of stops and searches in 2019-2020 were related to offensive weapons, so this is nowhere near sufficient to explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

The outcome is that nearly a third of people stopped resulted in removal of drugs, weapons or stolen goods. That is very effective policing and has made a positive impact. This policy has saved the lives of many young black people in London and have made the areas safer. This is what matters. The police are not rounding up innocent people, they are doing their best to prevent crime. The two-thirds of people that got stopped and were innocent get to carry on with their day in a safer area.

This is the problem with looking at stats with no context. I simply do not believe that the police are intentionally being racist to harrass that community, they are doing their best to help that community by making it safer. Improving the lives of black people in London is a very strange way to be racist.

I get searched practically every time I go to a football match. That policy keeps me safer. There is a lot less violence at footy games these days. Same thing.

[oxyjen]

Link from the most left-wing broadsheet in the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 96761.html

Link to an article about the actual victims of knife crime in the community calling for more stop and search.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/j ... 58136.html

Link from London Evening Standard showing how successful stop and search is.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/p ... 73986.html

Okay, but as mentioned before, the statistics show the only 16% of stops and searches in 2019-2020 were related to offensive weapons, so this is nowhere near sufficient to explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

The outcome is that nearly a third of people stopped resulted in removal of drugs, weapons or stolen goods. That is very effective policing and has made a positive impact. This policy has saved the lives of many young black people in London and have made the areas safer. This is what matters. The police are not rounding up innocent people, they are doing their best to prevent crime. The two-thirds of people that got stopped and were innocent get to carry on with their day in a safer area.

This is the problem with looking at stats with no context. I simply do not believe that the police are intentionally being racist to harrass that community, they are doing their best to help that community by making it safer. Improving the lives of black people in London is a very strange way to be racist.

I get searched practically every time I go to a football match. That policy keeps me safer. There is a lot less violence at footy games these days. Same thing.

Compelling argument to abolish TSA Pre-check/Global Entry/etc programs. It's hindering the authorities' ability to "prevent" crime!

[Utisz]

Link from the most left-wing broadsheet in the UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 96761.html

Link to an article about the actual victims of knife crime in the community calling for more stop and search.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/j ... 58136.html

Link from London Evening Standard showing how successful stop and search is.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/p ... 73986.html

Okay, but as mentioned before, the statistics show the only 16% of stops and searches in 2019-2020 were related to offensive weapons, so this is nowhere near sufficient to explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

The outcome is that nearly a third of people stopped resulted in removal of drugs, weapons or stolen goods. That is very effective policing and has made a positive impact. This policy has saved the lives of many young black people in London and have made the areas safer. This is what matters. The police are not rounding up innocent people, they are doing their best to prevent crime. The two-thirds of people that got stopped and were innocent get to carry on with their day in a safer area.

I think that this, again, does not explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

I guess we reached a fixpoint on this discussion. The fact that black people are 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in England and Wales, to me, is clear evidence of systemic racism in the UK, and its legacy. I doubt you will convince me otherwise (and vice versa).

[djm]

I think that this, again, does not explain why black people were 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in that period.

I guess we reached a fixpoint on this discussion. The fact that black people are 8.9 times more likely to be stopped and searched in England and Wales, to me, is clear evidence of systemic racism in the UK, and its legacy. I doubt you will convince me otherwise (and vice versa).

Happy to agree to disagree Utisz. I also think we can both agree racism is abhorrent, I just do not see it here.

[Sinny]

To explain my thoughts on this matter, I probably need to first add some context.

I am white, working-class, and grew up in the worst part of one of the most run-down cities in Europe during the 1970s. I experienced a dreadful education and was fairly poor. My great-great grandparents (male line) came from Belarus following the emancipation of the serfs. My great grandfather was a farm worker and ended up serving in both Galipoli (bullet through the leg) and the Somme (gassed). However in the end the appalling living conditions of 1920's Birmingham did for him and he died of TB. Fans of 'Peaky Blinders will recognise the area, and the factory he worked in (BSA). My Grandfather and his siblings were abandoned and left to fend for themselves, he ended up in an orphanage, his two brothers died in WW2 but my grandfather lived and worked his whole life 6 days a week on a building site. I was a teenage accident and grew up in an area described in my high school text book as a slum that had been cleared and made worse.

My demographic (white working class male) has the worst outcomes for education, health and social mobility of any group in the UK, significantly worse than most ethnic minority groups in the UK.

Critical race theory would have me believe that I am innately privileged due to my race, and that I am innately racist due to my colour and that a wealthy middle-class person that is not white is innately disadvantaged. It has become an obsession among the middle-class university crowd, the middle-class civil service, and the middle-class media. It has been picked up by the left and flogged to death by them.

It is hard to decide which group it is most racist towards, but it sows disharmony where there was none (I have never heard race discussed as much before).

I detest identity politics. People deserve to be judged as individuals, not a set of attributes.

All of this.

There are great powers seeking to divide people via identity politics, the low hanging fruit - it's been in the Communist handbook forever.
I prefer to judge people on their character and not their skin colour.

The more Liberals fixate on race the more likely they are to incite and inflame racial tensions, derp.