The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

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djm
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by djm » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 pm

Utisz wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:42 pm
djm wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:00 pm
No they are not all women. A trans woman is not the same as a woman and I see no gain in pretending otherwise.
A trans woman is not the same as a woman, a trans woman is a woman.
An orange is not the same as a fruit, an orange is a fruit.
The alteration of language to suit peoples feelings, rather than to accurately describe reality is a dangerous and unnecessary rabbit hole to go down.
The evolution of language is a feature not a bug. I think this is a pretty minor alteration compared to what we've seen in the past. For example, the term 'girl' used to mean a child of any sex/gender.
I do not accept that Trans women are women in any way shape or form. They may have gender dysphoria, and I have sympathy for that, but that does not change their biology. They are not actually women and the English language should not be redefined to be incorrect, the term Trans Woman is fine.

I have absolutely no problem using favoured pronouns etc to make them feel more comfortable, but redefining the meaning of 'woman' to include them is a step too far.

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Utisz
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by Utisz » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:30 pm

djm wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 pm
I do not accept that Trans women are women in any way shape or form. They may have gender dysphoria, and I have sympathy for that, but that does not change their biology. They are not actually women and the English language should not be redefined to be incorrect, the term Trans Woman is fine.

I have absolutely no problem using favoured pronouns etc to make them feel more comfortable, but redefining the meaning of 'woman' to include them is a step too far.
I think there are limits, and I can't say I know where they are, or should be, but for me those limits lie far beyond this added nuance versus the traditional definition of 'woman' or 'man'. These people have gone through what I can only assume to be a difficult process of gender reassignment, not to talk about having had to live with gender dysphoria, so clearly it is important for them to be viewed as a women, or a man, and if it is integral to their identity as a person, I don't see any reason why we cannot offer them that courtesy.

I think our science and ontology will survive having to use the more specific terms of trans women and cis women -- or trans men and cis men -- where the distinction is important (which is rare, I think). Our ontology has generally evolved, and must continue to evolve, towards a better and more informed and more humane world. This is a very minor change that might reduce some of the psychological damage that might otherwise be caused to a vulnerable group of people, and so I consider it a very minor change in the right direction.

So I guess we disagree again. :)

starla
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by starla » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:16 am

djm wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 pm
I have absolutely no problem using favoured pronouns etc to make them feel more comfortable, but redefining the meaning of 'woman' to include them is a step too far.
I think there is a difference between gender and sex. Gender is a system of categorization which has up until now been tied to sex, and which category you fall into determines how you are supposed to conduct your life. Sex on the other hand is biological. If you are talking about women in the gender sense of the word, then trans women can be women just as much as cis women can be women.

I think gender is garbage. I don't think people should have to fall into a category. In my opinion, trans folks are reinforcing these ridiculous categories by insisting that because they've adopted the conduct that is associated with one category that everyone should recognize it. To me, people who adopt trans gender pronouns seem like they're winning the battle and losing the war. But on a larger scale I do think it is helping to break down the idea that people have to adopt behaviors that society has historically associated with their genitalia, so if some dude decides he wants to be referred to with she/her pronouns from now on: ok lady, whatever you say.

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oxyjen
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by oxyjen » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:52 pm

Utisz wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:22 am


On the other hand, it seems clear to me that transgender men should be allowed to participate in the male category of whatever sport they want.
In these bills (or at least the one in my state), a person must be enrolled in the gender of the team they were assigned to at birth, and screened for any "performance enhancing drugs" (i.e., testosterone). So a trans man could not play on the team with the men, and are deemed as having an advantage if they play on their 'real' (according to their standards) team, so they will in effect be excluded from playing sports altogether.

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Utisz
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by Utisz » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:36 pm

oxyjen wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:52 pm
In these bills (or at least the one in my state), a person must be enrolled in the gender of the team they were assigned to at birth, and screened for any "performance enhancing drugs" (i.e., testosterone). So a trans man could not play on the team with the men, and are deemed as having an advantage if they play on their 'real' (according to their standards) team, so they will in effect be excluded from playing sports altogether.
Yeah, that's just dumb. I think the male category should just be seen as an "open category". As for performance enhancing drugs, it would seem sufficient to define reasonable limits for intake of hormones like testosterone (like they used to do for the female category).

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horvack
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by horvack » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:12 am

djm wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:38 pm
I do not accept that Trans women are women in any way shape or form. They may have gender dysphoria, and I have sympathy for that, but that does not change their biology. They are not actually women and the English language should not be redefined to be incorrect, the term Trans Woman is fine.

I have absolutely no problem using favoured pronouns etc to make them feel more comfortable, but redefining the meaning of 'woman' to include them is a step too far.
You not accepting who people are is certainly your choice, but it means you're showing the same bigotry that homosexuals faced until recently (well, at least it's gotten significantly better). You also can quote science and biology, and fail to note that no one is arguing what chromosomes a trans person is born with. That's your determining factor, but the science has moved on to much more subtle distinctions. Gender is not binary, this in known. Gen Z seems to have no problem with it, in my experience.

My wife's title is director of clinical therapy; she's quite familiar with the DSM-5. Being trans is not synonymous with having gender dysphoria, though many people try to use that term to discriminate against them.
The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress
In other words, if you are trans, and happy being trans, it's not gender dysphoria. Non-experts love to use this word without fully understanding the factors that professionals use to diagnose and treat it. If transitioning to make the body match who you are inside makes you happier, then that absolutely is not a mental illness. If you disagree with that, then you're going against nearly the entire community of mental health professionals.
Last edited by horvack on Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by Julius_Van_Der_Beak » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:18 am

So the Florida house passed a law allowing for "genital inspections" which only targets female student athletes. This sounds like a great idea and I'm sure nothing bad will come of this, because we know there are no creeps who would be happy to use this an excuse to get off on female adolescent bodies. Great job protecting against the pedos, conservatives! (And good job protecting women, TERFs).

https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... orts-would

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horvack
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by horvack » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:46 am

Julius_Van_Der_Beak wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:18 am
So the Florida house passed a law allowing for "genital inspections" which only targets female student athletes. This sounds like a great idea and I'm sure nothing bad will come of this, because we know there are no creeps who would be happy to use this an excuse to get off on female adolescent bodies. Great job protecting against the pedos, conservatives! (And good job protecting women, TERFs).

https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... orts-would
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djm
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Re: The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

Post by djm » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:10 am

horvack wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:12 am
You not accepting who people are is certainly your choice, but it means you're showing the same bigotry that homosexuals faced until recently (well, at least it's gotten significantly better). You also can quote science and biology, and fail to note that no one is arguing what chromosomes a trans person is born with. That's your determining factor, but the science has moved on to much more subtle distinctions. Gender is not binary, this in known. Gen Z seems to have no problem with it, in my experience.
Gender is a made up nonsense. People do not need a label to pin on them to explain who or what they are attracted to, it is a narcissistic exhibitionism. 20 odd genders? I do not know anyone outside of academia that doesn't think this is absurd.

Sex on the other hand is biological, and rather more limited. Sure there is always a duck billed platypus in science, but we do not define using these as norms. When did you last define a mammal, as might be egg laying?
horvack wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:12 am
My wife's title is director of clinical therapy; she's quite familiar with the DSM-5. Being trans is not synonymous with having gender dysphoria, though many people try to use that term to discriminate against them.

The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress
People do no such thing. Most people have never even met a trans person, and are not looking to discriminate at all. They just do not buy into this recent leftist language grab.
horvack wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:12 am
In other words, if you are trans, and happy being trans, it's not gender dysphoria. Non-experts love to use this word without fully understanding the factors that professionals use to diagnose and treat it. If transitioning to make the body match who you are inside makes you happier, then that absolutely is not a mental illness. If you disagree with that, then you're going against nearly the entire community of mental health professionals.
I think the use of the word 'professionals' in this context is an oxymoron. The whole profession is in the midst of an 'emperor has no clothes' episode. Give it a few years and a competent doctor will put their head above the parapet and shout 'but he's naked' and the scales will fall from peoples eyes. These idiots are responsible for children having their genitals removed, they deserve no respect.

For what it is worth I know two Trans people, both of whom use the term gender dysphoria. One lives with my eldest daughter, so I take an interest. The other is the father of a friend that walked out when they were twelve and 'became a woman' then got involved in a debauched lifestyle very publicly.


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