The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

[Madrigal]

When it is even a partnership. Here in Chile, the women's movement basically fights shoulder to shoulder in the streets with the trans community. But I'm starting to see more and more signs of feminists around the world balking at certain rights the trans community has been claiming. Ranging from being allowed to play in women's sports, to being allowed to be called a woman.

I was just reading about how representatives of the Canadian trans community are complaining about their isssues being assigned to government departments traditionally dealing with women's issues, and having to deal with the "transphobia" of feminists there. I've also read that about 20 US States have presented legislation this year to ban trans women from women's sports. An article on the NYT today is calling this "using women as an excuse to be transphobic", but I think a lot of women have real reservations on this issue.

I tend to agree with the idea (which I don't really think is a matter of opinion) that men generally have a biological advantage over women in terms of speed and strength. But what would happen if trans women were allowed to compete in women's sports? Would soccer teams be composed of only trans women, while trans track competitors consistently defeat biological women unti there's no point in them even signing up? It seems like any of these extreme scenarios would be highly improbable. But if they were to happen, would it be wrong (after all, 'they are all women')?

Not that many sports segregate physical size or strength in the first place - exceptions I can think of are boxing, or the segregation of teams by age range (junior leagues, etc). But do we have basketball teams for different-height people to "level the playing field" for everyone? Do we have track competitors divided into categories of different leg lengths? Do we have swimmers divided according to arm length? Weren't we already unequal before the trans community came into the picture here?

Don't get me wrong though, I'm one of those feminists that's not convinced trans women should play in women's sports yet, and especially not without restrictions. I just wonder whether that reticence is coherent.

[Ptah]

This is a complex and very charged topic. So I'll just offer a summary opinion.

Feminist activists generally have a valid point. Or at least have the potential to have a point. (Although they tend to completely botch the argument for it). Trans activists? Not so much, nor even the potential, if you ask me. (They're "not even wrong").

Put another way. Take the very worst of the emotionally-charged feminist activists, and remove all the emotional whatnot. You're bound to have a legitimate point somewhere in what's left of what they're saying. Take about anything that will fall out of a trans activist's mouth, even the relative-best of them. Take all the emotional delusion out. What's left? Nothing.

Reality's a bitch, right?

*shrug*

[starla]

Not that many sports segregate physical size or strength in the first place - exceptions I can think of are boxing, or the segregation of teams by age range (junior leagues, etc). But do we have basketball teams for different-height people to "level the playing field" for everyone? Do we have track competitors divided into categories of different leg lengths? Do we have swimmers divided according to arm length? Weren't we already unequal before the trans community came into the picture here?

I don't see a trans woman competing in women's sports as any different from an athlete taking steroids to be competitive. They are using unnatural means to obtain an advantage. Unless they aren't even transitioning medically. In which case they might as well just declare themselves retards and compete in the special olympics.

[oxyjen]

The "trans/sports" wave of legal offense in 20+ US states is coming from the group Alliance Defending Freedom. Synopsis:
'Founded by some 30 leaders of the Christian Right, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a legal advocacy and training group that has supported the recriminalization of sexual acts between consenting LGBTQ adults in the U.S. and criminalization abroad; has defended state-sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad; has contended that LGBTQ people are more likely to engage in pedophilia; and claims that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity and society. ADF also works to develop “religious liberty” legislation and case law that will allow the denial of goods and services to LGBTQ people on the basis of religion. Since the election of President Trump, ADF has become one of the most influential groups informing the administration’s attack on LGBTQ rights."

The same people who cared that gays might be able to marry are the same people that care about penises and vaginas on sports teams. The religious ones were dealt some losses in the Supreme Court last year so are trying to get some legal foothold back (Bostock v Clayton County, GA....really the end game is to be able to not hire/fire people for gay/transgender without fear of legal retribution, imo, because who the heck actually cares about high school women's sports enough to devote all the time/lawyers to make bills across half the US? Nobody cares about womens' sports even at the professional level, lol).

[jyng1]

and claims that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity

One can only hope.

[oxyjen]

and claims that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity

One can only hope.

I'll cross my fingers!

---
Our state is dealing with this legislation right now. The legislature wants it, but our governor is recommending to change it to apply only to high school (it is targeted to college as well). The bad thing is I think this can rule you out from NCAA, also she is fearful that Amazon might back out of a proposed move here. The adoption of anti-trans bills in SC caused some serious economic impact for the state.

Our high school sports association through the state has had a comprehensive policy about the guidelines about letting trans athletes play. It's been in effect since 2013 and only one trans student has played sports. Hey, this bill's for you, kid! (no but seriously it would probably be shitty if you were this literal one kid. "Was I so much a problem you had to create a law about me?")

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The "trans/sports" wave of legal offense in 20+ US states is coming from the group Alliance Defending Freedom. Synopsis:
'Founded by some 30 leaders of the Christian Right, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a legal advocacy and training group that has supported the recriminalization of sexual acts between consenting LGBTQ adults in the U.S. and criminalization abroad; has defended state-sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad; has contended that LGBTQ people are more likely to engage in pedophilia; and claims that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity and society. ADF also works to develop “religious liberty” legislation and case law that will allow the denial of goods and services to LGBTQ people on the basis of religion. Since the election of President Trump, ADF has become one of the most influential groups informing the administration’s attack on LGBTQ rights."

The same people who cared that gays might be able to marry are the same people that care about penises and vaginas on sports teams. The religious ones were dealt some losses in the Supreme Court last year so are trying to get some legal foothold back (Bostock v Clayton County, GA....really the end game is to be able to not hire/fire people for gay/transgender without fear of legal retribution, imo, because who the heck actually cares about high school women's sports enough to devote all the time/lawyers to make bills across half the US? Nobody cares about womens' sports even at the professional level, lol).

I considered posting something to the effect about the idea of "omigod transwomen are destroying women's sports" is basically a Republican talking point, but I refrained because the way I would have addressed it would have come off as too trolly/snarky, so I refrained. Anyway, I appreciate you broaching it in a more productive manner.

I think the people talking about this are using it in the same way they used women's rights when justifying US foreign policy at the turn of the millenium. Do they actually care about women's rights? Probably not, or at least as not as much as they want to bomb foreigners. Talking about women in Afghanistan or "honor killings" is just a way of trying to get buy in from the other side for their policy initiatives (and unfortunately, it did seem to work on some people at the time). I hope people have learned something from that whole experience, but considering that most people don't learn anything, probably not.

Also, it's totally possible to change the way we organize sports to continue to be fair without marginalizing and excluding an already marginalized group. For instance, we could do something similar to weight classes in boxing but extend it to more sports. I'm not an expert in athletics by any means, but it seems like it's probably doable to be inclusive without sacrificing fair competition. It would require some creativity, but believe it or not a lot of things aren't mutually exclusive zero-sum games.

[Madrigal]

The "trans/sports" wave of legal offense in 20+ US states is coming from the group Alliance Defending Freedom. Synopsis:
'Founded by some 30 leaders of the Christian Right, the Alliance Defending Freedom is a legal advocacy and training group that has supported the recriminalization of sexual acts between consenting LGBTQ adults in the U.S. and criminalization abroad; has defended state-sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad; has contended that LGBTQ people are more likely to engage in pedophilia; and claims that a “homosexual agenda” will destroy Christianity and society. ADF also works to develop “religious liberty” legislation and case law that will allow the denial of goods and services to LGBTQ people on the basis of religion. Since the election of President Trump, ADF has become one of the most influential groups informing the administration’s attack on LGBTQ rights."

Wow! Sometimes fundamentalist lobbies in the US remind me of the Taliban. Thanks for the info; the article I read that mentioned this didn't say it was this group promoting the legislation (not that I recall, anyway).

Nobody cares about womens' sports even at the professional level, lol).

I agree that nobody gives a damn about women's sports and that this conversation is dominated by people who don't give a damn about it, but I don't like that fact being used to deflect from the discussion. Biological males in women's teams or competing one-on-one with women is something that has to be addressed as scientifically as possible, and it just doesn't convince me that reservations about their inclusion are simple transphobia, end of discussion. I also just don't know what kind of expert would have the authority to determine the regulations that would fairly allow their inclusion in women's teams. Who do we call upon?

[Senseye]

I would agree that trans-women would have an unfair advantage over biologically born women in sports.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I am not sure it is that big of a deal as I don't have a clue how many trans women would even be interested.

But if a substantial portion of the gold medal's in the olympics (for example) start going to trans-women competing in women's events, it would have to be addressed.

[Sinny]

Wow, same old people calling for the destruction of Christianity and men to be included in women's sports (like that's normal)