The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Wow, same old people calling for the destruction of Christianity and men to be included in women's sports (like that's normal)

I forgot you have superior revolutionary genes than me.

TERFs gonna TERF, I guess.

[Sinny]

Wow, same old people calling for the destruction of Christianity and men to be included in women's sports (like that's normal)

I forgot you have superior revolutionary genes than me.

TERFs gonna TERF, I guess.

Do these words even have any real meaning? Back in 1755 when the great work of the English dictionary was undertaken, the great minds of the time surmised that the English language had peaked and it could only ever be debased from henceforth.

They were right.

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Wow, same old people calling for the destruction of Christianity and men to be included in women's sports (like that's normal)

I forgot you have superior revolutionary genes than me.

TERFs gonna TERF, I guess.

Do these words even have any real meaning? Back in 1755 when the great work of the English dictionary was undertaken, the great minds of the time surmised that the English language had peaked and it could only ever be debased from henceforth.

They were right.

Just because you didn't understand them doesn't mean they don't have a meaning.

Could you explain to me what it means for a language to "peak"? I'm not clear on what exactly is meant by that.

[Utisz]

It's a complex issue. What appears to be now clear is that transgender women have a huge advantage in most sports over cis women, even if their testosterone levels are suppressed (which has traditionally been used as a key criterion for the female category of many sports). So I think there's a good argument to be made that transgender women should not be allowed to participate in the female category of many sports, though it probably needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

There was a lot of discussion and controversy about this in the context of rugby, where it's not just an issue of fairness, it's an issue of safety (an imbalance of physical strength can lead to serious safety issues in tacking, scrums, etc.). Even just in the men's game, only certain professional players are allowed to be in the front-row of the scrum, for example. You are not allowed to put most players in the front-row, including other professional players on the team, due to a high risk of neck injuries if they are not matched in strength with their opposing player, or if they are not trained in scrummaging.

A 38-page draft document from World Rugby's transgender working group in 2020 acknowledged that cisgender female rugby players, when tackled by a player who has gone through male puberty, are at a significantly greater risk of injury. The document cites recent peer-reviewed or preprint research showing that trans women, after taking medication to lower their testosterone, retain "significant" physical advantages over cisgender women "with only small reductions in strength and no loss in bone mass or muscle volume or size after testosterone suppression”. The working group calculated that increased injury risk for typical players with female characteristics when tackled by a typical player with male characteristics was between 20-30%, and potentially reaching "levels twice as large" in extreme cases where the players are unusually small and large, respectively. Consequently, the document proposes that in the absence of persuasive evidence to the contrary, International Olympic Committee guidelines regarding a minimum 12-month lowering of testosterone are "not fit for purpose" in the context of rugby.

The British Journal of Sports Medicine has proposed that the 12-month treatments for transwomen that were proposed by World Athletics and the International Olympics Committee were not sufficient due to transwomen still being 12% faster than biological women after two years of treatment.

Aside from safety, I do think that the fairness issue is also compelling. In that sense, the most important voice in the discussion are the (cis) women who actually play and dedicate a lot of their lives to these sports.

On the other hand, it seems clear to me that transgender men should be allowed to participate in the male category of whatever sport they want.

[djm]

But do we have basketball teams for different-height people to "level the playing field" for everyone?

The last time I visited the Philippines, I was discussing basketball, and why on earth it is so popular there with one of the agronomists that works with my products there. It baffles me how anyone watches it anywhere, but it is insanely popular in the Philippines. He was bemoaning the fact that all the top players there are Philippino Americans, and that they have an unfair height advantage.

[djm]

But what would happen if trans women were allowed to compete in women's sports? Would soccer teams be composed of only trans women, while trans track competitors consistently defeat biological women unti there's no point in them even signing up? It seems like any of these extreme scenarios would be highly improbable. But if they were to happen, would it be wrong (after all, 'they are all women')?

Yes it would be wrong. No, it is not improbable, it would be inevitable.

No they are not all women. A trans woman is not the same as a woman, and I see no gain in pretending otherwise. The alteration of language to suit peoples feelings, rather than to accurately describe reality is a dangerous and unnecessary rabbit hole to go down.

[avolkiteshvara]

Feeling like a woman !== woman.

Where are all the transgendered men dying to be in mens sports.

[starla]

Also, since when is competing in women's sports (or any sport) a right?

[Utisz]

Where are all the transgendered men dying to be in mens sports.

Though trans men would obviously be at a disadvantage is most men's sports, there are a few notable examples of trans men competing at high levels. Wikipedia has a list. Though the list is longer for trans women, there are a few notable trans male athletes, competing in the male category for collegiate swimming, professional boxing, etc.

[Utisz]

No they are not all women. A trans woman is not the same as a woman and I see no gain in pretending otherwise.

A trans woman is not the same as a woman, a trans woman is a woman.
An orange is not the same as a fruit, an orange is a fruit.

The alteration of language to suit peoples feelings, rather than to accurately describe reality is a dangerous and unnecessary rabbit hole to go down.

The evolution of language is a feature not a bug. I think this is a pretty minor alteration compared to what we've seen in the past. For example, the term 'girl' used to mean a child of any sex/gender.