The uneasy partnership of feminism and trans rights

[ashi]

There was/is an, as you say, "uneasy partnership" between feminists and trans activists for the same reason that gay and lesbian groups were folded into and replaced by the LGBT movement, because under sufficient marginalisation/oppression it is seemingly in everyone's best interests to band together whatever their disagreements and ultimately conflicting aims. But women's liberation is a secondary consideration at best for all groups/ideologies/movements which do not make it their exclusive focus because (neo-)liberals hate all forms of feminism that aren't co-opted gibberish that repositions all things once, briefly argued as oppressive to women to be, it turns out, actually good and empowering to them, and no women is more disgusting than those who centre their lives around other women, whether feminists or lesbians. That is the origin and nature of this conflict, and it isn't secretly funded by Christian groups.

(An off-topic continuation of this would be to get into the incredible, endless racism from the loudest, most enthusiastically "anti-racist" voices in these spaces. And, no, I don't mean against "white people". )

[ashi]

Now to move on from the title of the thread to the body of the first post. >_>

When it is even a partnership. Here in Chile--

Let me stop you right there. No one in the anglosphere gives a single shit about anything in South America unless it is a statistic that can be taken out of context and used to justify all manner of pretzel logic. Specifically, I have in mind the way data relating to the astonishingly violent and deadly sex trades in South America are selectively used not to argue against decriminalising or legalising these same trades elsewhere but to substantiate the claims that trans people of any description/identity are uniquely targetted with and subjected to an unconscionably high degree of discrimination and violence the world over. Claims which, along with similarly fanciful suicide statistics, are wholly without merit and regularly weaponised against women's groups and activists.

Beyond that, anyone wishing to discuss trans people's place in sport (or even have an opinion) should probably start with learning why sport is even segregated by sex in the first place and then the history of the treatment of women with disorders of sex development (often refereed to broadly as "intersex" conditions) many of whom end up excluded from competition for the sake of fairness after individually being subjected to horrifying treatment.

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm starting to wonder if we're going to start seeing GOP feminism become a thing.


Megan Rapinoe burns Caitlyn Jenner over her “not exceptional” foray into politics

What does this Rapinoe chick know about women in sports, though?

[ashi]

The right is only capable of speaking of sexism and racism in term of struggles of the past, tragic evils long since overcome and/or defeated, and even then only in ways that don't implicate them too directly. There is some tricky math at work, as they are willing to admit that both sexism and racism were quite bad 50 years ago yet none of their parents or grandparents were themselves sexist or racist, leaving us to infer it was some sort of ephemeral environmental hazard that has since dissipated.

The GOP machinery has plenty of kept women all too eager to speak, however indirectly, to the lack of any need for feminism or women's groups. A variation on the call to shake off one burdens and simply pull oneself up by ones boot straps, these women speak at length about how they never needed be treated delicately or otherwise make use of "victim culture" to make excuses for underperforming and failing to be promoted all the while never being sexually assaulted. It is all thoroughly disgusting and liberals are rapidly closing in on their level of passive aggressive anti-woman BS.

True equality at last.

[Utisz]

Beyond that, anyone wishing to discuss trans people's place in sport (or even have an opinion) should probably start with learning why sport is even segregated by sex in the first place and then the history of the treatment of women with disorders of sex development (often refereed to broadly as "intersex" conditions) many of whom end up excluded from competition for the sake of fairness after individually being subjected to horrifying treatment.

Regarding the former part, my response would be that there is a female category in most sports to allow women to compete. Without a female category in most sports, there would be much fewer female athletes, and they would not be celebrated equally as male athletes are celebrated when they win, for example, Olympic gold?

The latter part I guess refers to, for example, what the Soviets were doing back in the day in terms of doping and hormone treatments for female athletes?

I'm starting to wonder if we're going to start seeing GOP feminism become a thing.

Nope.

The right is only capable of speaking of sexism and racism in term of struggles of the past, tragic evils long since overcome and/or defeated, and even then only in ways that don't implicate them too directly. There is some tricky math at work, as they are willing to admit that both sexism and racism were quite bad 50 years ago yet none of their parents or grandparents were themselves sexist or racist, leaving us to infer it was some sort of ephemeral environmental hazard that has since dissipated.

I think that this sort of calculus is particular to certain countries like the U.S., based on social and political pragmatism.

[ashi]

The latter part I guess refers to, for example, what the Soviets were doing back in the day in terms of doping and hormone treatments for female athletes?

No, but that is certainly worth discussing. An integral component of American anti-leftist propaganda was (is?) the image of the masculine socialist/communist woman. This and fear of Soviet cheating became a free pass to abuse women who performed suspiciously well or just while insufficiently feminine, and continues to this day. Due to the elusive nature of most disorders of sex development this means repeated, invasive examinations and public humiliation that can end careers regardless of any findings.

We are talking about Ewa Klobukowska, Maria Patino, Pinki Pramanik, sisters Irina and Tamara Press, Caster Semenya, Stella Walsh, and many others forever nameless because there was no need to record those violated but who ultimately "passed" their tests which prior to chromosome screening consisted largely of artful prodding.

[ashi]

I'm starting to wonder if we're going to start seeing GOP feminism become a thing.

I think my answer is the same regardless, but I am curious what you meant by that and how you would expect it to manifest. What are its signs and precursors?

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm starting to wonder if we're going to start seeing GOP feminism become a thing.

I think my answer is the same regardless, but I am curious what you meant by that and how you would expect it to manifest. What are its signs and precursors?

I was conceiving of a potential realignment based on TERFy types flocking to the GOP banner to protect women's spaces (like female athletics) being invaded by "men" or something like that. I guess my roadmap is people supporting the war in Iraq because "they're terrible to women over there." Then again I don't hear many people defending Israel's behavior with similar justifications these days. It may have had more to do with the post-911 climate than anything else.

[ashi]

I'm starting to wonder if we're going to start seeing GOP feminism become a thing.

I think my answer is the same regardless, but I am curious what you meant by that and how you would expect it to manifest. What are its signs and precursors?

I was conceiving of a potential realignment based on TERFy types flocking to the GOP banner to protect women's spaces (like female athletics) being invaded by "men" or something like that. I guess my roadmap is people supporting the war in Iraq because "they're terrible to women over there." Then again I don't hear many people defending Israel's behavior with similar justifications these days. It may have had more to do with the post-911 climate than anything else.

Oh, in that case: No one actually cares about women they just do things like cite the mistreatment of women in Muslim majority countries to whitewash their existing biases, whether that be justifying war abroad or dismissing the need for feminism domestically. Feminism and women are only ever pawns to neo-liberals.

Oh, and feminazis don't exist, so they won't be flocking to the GOP any more than they flocked to Bill Clinton's socialist regime to entice his PC police to put good freethinking men on the naughty step or whatever unhinged fantasy Rush Limbaugh was selling 30 years ago and your lot have recycled today.

[Utisz]

The latter part I guess refers to, for example, what the Soviets were doing back in the day in terms of doping and hormone treatments for female athletes?

No, but that is certainly worth discussing.

I was referring to this type of story (from East Germany, rather than Soviet Russia):

Andreas Krieger (born 20 July 1966 in East Berlin) is a German former shot putter who competed on the women's East German athletics team at SC Dynamo Berlin as Heidi Krieger.

He was systematically and unknowingly doped with anabolic steroids for years by East German officials,[1] which caused body chemistry issues. Being a trans man, Krieger subsequently underwent gender affirmation surgery. Krieger says that, while he did experience gender dysphoria before being doped,[2] he regretted not being able to transition without the doping abuses.

Krieger was systematically doped with steroids from the age of 16 onward. According to Werner Franke and Brigitte Berendonk's 1991 book, Doping: From Research to Deceit, Krieger took almost 2,600 milligrams of steroids in 1986 alone— nearly 1,000 milligrams more than Ben Johnson took during the 1988 Summer Olympics.

As early as the age of 18, Krieger began developing visibly male characteristics. Eventually, years of doping left him with many masculine traits. By 1997, at the age of 31, Krieger underwent sex reassignment surgery and changed his name to Andreas.[2] Krieger had "felt out of place and longed in some vague way to be a boy", and said in a 2004 interview in The New York Times that he was "glad that he became a man". However, he felt that receiving hormones without his consent deprived him of the right to "find out for myself which sex I wanted to be."[2] Krieger's sex change operation dominated Germany's news headlines and focused widespread attention on the legacy of doping in East Germany, leading other former athletes to speak out in public for the first time.

Krieger gave evidence at the trial of Manfred Ewald, leader of the East German sports programme and president of the East German Olympic committee and Manfred Hoeppner, East German medical director in Berlin in 2000. Both Ewald and Hoepner were convicted of accessory to the "intentional bodily harm of athletes, including minors".

Krieger was forced to retire in part due to experiencing severe pain from lifting massive amounts of weight while on steroids. Even today, he has severe pain in his hips and thighs, and can only withstand mild exertion.