Run-up to WW3

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:40 pm

jyng1 wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:49 am
Honestly, is that what you got out of your "evidence". You provided an article that quotes a far right Polish politician with a long list of controversies, one of which is a list of the conspiracies he endorses, endorsing a conspiracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Korwin-Mikke

The other two were dubious in their relevance.
This is your entire response before you started repeating your own claims. The other two sources are perfectly relevant. Especially the leaked phone call.
You think Western Intelligence agencies wouldn't be involved
You asked me for evidence of their involvement so this is a pretty lame attempt at moving the goalposts.
I'd be interested in seeing evidence of Ukrainians being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for doing the same for the CIA (considering this is a proxy war...).
Like this? https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierr ... ents-show/


And I haven't even gotten into the Orange Revolution which was very clearly instigated and funded by the West. It's ridiculous to act like this all started with Crimea.

It's also ridiculous to pretend like it's some fringe conspiracy theory to suggest that Western intelligence would use the same old dirty tricks to push regime change which they've been doing for our entire lives and really ramped it up in the current century. The motive is obvious, you don't think they had means and opportunity?




idk anything about this woman but she's right on here

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starjots
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by starjots » Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:59 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:31 pm
It feels like 2003 all over again. I might as well be back there yelling at everyone about how stupid it is to believe in that WMD nonsense. It's not gonna matter what any of us says, there will be endless war to feed the MIC.
It doesn't feel like 2003 to me. In 2003 we were swept into the false narrative of attacking Iraq because they had something to do with 9/11 followed by the WMD carrot. We got a bunch of countries to back us and did a regime change with the overall idea of remolding the Middle East in our own image. It was a mistake, and IMO, a shameful episode in US history.

It seems more like 1990. In that case, one country invaded another, dumped babies out of incubators, and made a play to go from regional to global power by controlling a huge share of the world's oil supply. We put together a coalition, rolled their asses out of Kuwait, and stopped. It was, IMO, precisely the right response. Maybe the fact I took part in that action has something to do with my opinion, but it achieved it's limited objectives.

In 2022, again, we have a country trying to assert itself as a global power by invading another country and committing a host of war crimes along the way. We put together a coalition and -indirectly- support the invaded country with the limited objective (Ukraine's stated objective) of rolling their ass out of Ukraine.

Now whatever you say about CIA this and that seem irrelevant to me. If Ukraine was just a western proxy for mischief against Russia, it would have folded like a wet napkin when Russia invaded.* Remember, the attack on Kiev (Kyiv?) was repulsed before any significant western aid was rendered. The Ukrainians are fighting because they see themselves as Ukrainians, not Russians, and Vladamir Putin's opinion on who they are doesn't mean jack shit.

*If you want to excoriate US foreign policy for supporting hollow regimes, there are ample modern historical examples. The two that come to mind for me are Vietnam and Afghanistan.

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Senseye
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Senseye » Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:45 pm

Re: Clare Daly.

Read this on wiki about her:
In late January 2022, Daly described the Russian troop build up on the Ukrainian border as being "clearly defensive" and believed there is "no evidence that Russia has any desire to invade Ukraine, it would be of no benefit to them".
This statement alone convinces me Daly is a moron. I believe in Russian and China she would be known as a 'useful idiot'. I always wonder why these pro authoritarian types never emigrate to the countries they seem to admire.

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Ferrus
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Ferrus » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:14 pm

Senseye wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:45 pm
why these pro authoritarian types never emigrate to the countries they seem to admire.
Ironically the one who did do this (Edward Snowden) did so on a specifically, and with reterospect hilarious, anti-authoritarian platform.
Ex falso, quodlibet

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 2:43 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:40 pm
You think Western Intelligence agencies wouldn't be involved
I'd be interested in seeing evidence of Ukrainians being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for doing the same for the CIA (considering this is a proxy war...).
Like this? https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierr ... ents-show/


And I haven't even gotten into the Orange Revolution which was very clearly instigated and funded by the West. It's ridiculous to act like this all started with Crimea.

It's also ridiculous to pretend like it's some fringe conspiracy theory to suggest that Western intelligence would use the same old dirty tricks to push regime change which they've been doing for our entire lives and really ramped it up in the current century. The motive is obvious, you don't think they had means and opportunity?
Is that what you call evidence of the CIA funding a revolution?

"Omidyar Network is a social change venture that works to bring about structural changes that will fundamentally shift the systems that govern our daily lives".

"Omidyar Network is committed to supporting a collaborative, open, and effective funding community. We publish our investments, financial statements, and points of view".

There must be something about Orange. They locked up Yanukovych after the Orange Revolution 'cause the dudes a crook. Voted by Transparency International as the best example of a corrupt politician in the world.

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/conten ... 07875.html

Very prophetic of Johnny...


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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:22 am

Operator Starsky giving his opinion on US NGOs funding the 2014 Euromaidan "Coup".


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Catoptric
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Catoptric » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:46 am

EurAsian Times: US To ‘Withdraw’ Its Entire F-15 Fighter Jet Fleet From Japan Amid Chinese Vow To Unite All Lost Territories – Reports.
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-to-withdra ... rom-japan/
Societal egress and ennui
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HighlyIrregular II
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by HighlyIrregular II » Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:42 pm

Catoptric wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:46 am
EurAsian Times: US To ‘Withdraw’ Its Entire F-15 Fighter Jet Fleet From Japan Amid Chinese Vow To Unite All Lost Territories – Reports.
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-to-withdra ... rom-japan/
Reuters bas a different take on it.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-plans- ... 022-10-30/
Putting B-52s, which have a combat range of about 14,000 km, in Australia will be a warning to Beijing, as fears grow about an assault on Taiwan, Becca Wasser, senior fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based Centre for a New American Security, told the ABC.

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:03 pm

starjots wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:59 am
puerile_polyp wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:31 pm
It feels like 2003 all over again. I might as well be back there yelling at everyone about how stupid it is to believe in that WMD nonsense. It's not gonna matter what any of us says, there will be endless war to feed the MIC.
It doesn't feel like 2003 to me. In 2003 we were swept into the false narrative of attacking Iraq because they had something to do with 9/11 followed by the WMD carrot. We got a bunch of countries to back us and did a regime change with the overall idea of remolding the Middle East in our own image. It was a mistake, and IMO, a shameful episode in US history.

It seems more like 1990. In that case, one country invaded another, dumped babies out of incubators, and made a play to go from regional to global power by controlling a huge share of the world's oil supply. We put together a coalition, rolled their asses out of Kuwait, and stopped. It was, IMO, precisely the right response. Maybe the fact I took part in that action has something to do with my opinion, but it achieved it's limited objectives.

In 2022, again, we have a country trying to assert itself as a global power by invading another country and committing a host of war crimes along the way. We put together a coalition and -indirectly- support the invaded country with the limited objective (Ukraine's stated objective) of rolling their ass out of Ukraine.
Anybody who thought that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 was just really, really not paying attention. Which was, and is, a whole lot of people. There was a whole lot of war propaganda, people were amped up, our "leaders" pointed to someone and said "that's the bad guy", and most people didn't feel like putting more thought into it than that, plain and simple. It happens over and over again throughout history.

While I'm sure you served in the military with character, I believe your view of the Gulf War is extremely simplistic and naive. Saddam had been working closely with US intelligence for years - USA provided support for his notorious chemical weapons attacks https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/ex ... ssed-iran/

Saddam spoke with the US and was given the green light to invade Kuwait. https://www.workers.org/2021/01/54037/

USA had been preparing to do this since the late 80s when they realized USSR was collapsing. The whole point was to devastate Iraq, which they did first with a massive carpet bombing campaign (200,000 civilian casualties) and then by crippling the country with sanctions that killed over a million more, primarily children.
Now whatever you say about CIA this and that seem irrelevant to me. If Ukraine was just a western proxy for mischief against Russia, it would have folded like a wet napkin when Russia invaded.* Remember, the attack on Kiev (Kyiv?) was repulsed before any significant western aid was rendered.
That isn't even close to true, is it? Significant western aid has been given for years. Officially about three billion dollars between 2014 and the start of 2022. Do you remember the controversy over Trump supposedly withholding some of that aid in exchange for political favors? And the CIA having operations in the region for many years seems quite relevant. I would bet money that the Antonov Airport was defended by men with US training, US equipment and US intelligence support.
The Ukrainians are fighting because they see themselves as Ukrainians, not Russians, and Vladamir Putin's opinion on who they are doesn't mean jack shit.
The fact is that a significant number of Ukrainians do see themselves as Russian and have been fighting for years to separate Donbas. They say that the Ukrainians in Kyiv have been oppressing them and committing war crimes.

If you think that's just propaganda, ask yourself why you'll question the other side's propaganda but not your own. Do you know that Ukraine has long been considered one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and the most corrupt in Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine Do you know that Joe Biden's son served on the board of the largest gas company in Ukraine? Joe was accused of withholding aid to Ukraine on his son's behalf, but claimed it was to force the Ukrainians to fire a corrupt prosecutor.

I think if you spent more time reading into things critically you would have a much more suspicious and cynical view of the Western agenda.
*If you want to excoriate US foreign policy for supporting hollow regimes, there are ample modern historical examples. The two that come to mind for me are Vietnam and Afghanistan.
Those both took a long time to look like the huge wastes of life and money that they're seen as today. We spent years being told otherwise and most people believing it. And years before that with the CIA there stirring shit up secretly. And they learned from some of their mistakes but their motives remain the same: Endless War to feed the MIC.
Senseye wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:45 pm
Re: Clare Daly.

Read this on wiki about her:
In late January 2022, Daly described the Russian troop build up on the Ukrainian border as being "clearly defensive" and believed there is "no evidence that Russia has any desire to invade Ukraine, it would be of no benefit to them".
This statement alone convinces me Daly is a moron. I believe in Russian and China she would be known as a 'useful idiot'. I always wonder why these pro authoritarian types never emigrate to the countries they seem to admire.
What she said in the clip I posted is the relevant part and I really don't give a shit that you found an instance of this person also being wrong about something else on a different occasion. It's just a way for you to avoid acknowledging the truth of what she says in that clip.

Also hilarious that you're pulling out "useful idiot" and making yourself the unironic neo-McCarthyist stereotype.
jyng1 wrote:
Sun Oct 30, 2022 2:43 am
Is that what you call evidence of the CIA funding a revolution?

"Omidyar Network is a social change venture that works to bring about structural changes that will fundamentally shift the systems that govern our daily lives".

"Omidyar Network is committed to supporting a collaborative, open, and effective funding community. We publish our investments, financial statements, and points of view".
How tech oligarch Pierre Omidyar funds regime-change networks and partners with CIA cutouts
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/02/20/pier ... a-cutouts/

CIA has operated via NGOs for years now. OSI, USAID, NED, countless others. This has been common knowledge for a very long time.

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Senseye
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Senseye » Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:21 pm

puerile_polyp wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:03 pm
What she said in the clip I posted is the relevant part and I really don't give a shit that you found an instance of this person also being wrong about something else on a different occasion. It's just a way for you to avoid acknowledging the truth of what she says in that clip.
What she said in the clip is what caused me to google up some info about her. She sounded like a typical left wing anti-capitalist ranting about the evils of America, capitalism, democracy and all that jazz. Don't know if she is some sort of Marxist or what her political philosophy is exactly, but she seems caught up in her own dogma.

The useful idiot term came from her complete lack of criticism of Russia and some other info I read in passing said she was among the most quoted western politicians in China.

She blathered on about peace, with not even a hint at how it could be achieved. Just a "the west is evil" rant while totally ignoring Russia's 100% culpability in the Ukraine conflict. I suspect she would suggest just handing over Ukraine (or chunks of it) to the Russians. More useful idiocy from the Kremlin's perspective. I suspect they are fans.

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