Run-up to WW3

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:43 pm

jyng1 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:08 pm
It's been pretty noteworthy lately; commenting about the similarity of UN peacekeeping missions like UNSOM and UNMIBH to Putins unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
You're also bringing up the UN out of nowhere.

We were discussing NATO so I was obviously referring to the NATO-led military interventions in all of those countries. But as always you are a complete waste of time to interact with because all you can do is repost what you find on facebook and shit like "occupy democrats" without having even a basic understanding of what you're posting. You can't follow a simple discussion without interjecting non sequiturs and non-sensical insults. I really think you're just getting old and I hope somebody's around to take care of you.

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:47 pm

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:43 pm
jyng1 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:08 pm
It's been pretty noteworthy lately; commenting about the similarity of UN peacekeeping missions like UNSOM and UNMIBH to Putins unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
You're also bringing up the UN out of nowhere.
You brought up Somalia and the Balkans. Those were UN operations and were completely unlike the current unprovoked invasion of a democratic sovereign nation.

Perhaps you don't know because you weren't there?

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:18 pm

jyng1 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:47 pm
puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:43 pm
jyng1 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:08 pm
It's been pretty noteworthy lately; commenting about the similarity of UN peacekeeping missions like UNSOM and UNMIBH to Putins unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
You're also bringing up the UN out of nowhere.
You brought up Somalia and the Balkans. Those were UN operations and were completely unlike the current unprovoked invasion of a democratic sovereign nation.

Perhaps you don't know because you weren't there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations
and were completely unlike the current unprovoked invasion of a democratic sovereign nation.
I know what you're trying to say here. CBS News reporter forced to apologize after saying Ukraine more ‘civilized’ than Iraq, Afghanistan

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:25 pm

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:18 pm
and were completely unlike the current unprovoked invasion of a democratic sovereign nation.
I know what you're trying to say here. CBS News reporter forced to apologize after saying Ukraine more ‘civilized’ than Iraq, Afghanistan
Do you actually have an argument apart from being an apologist for Putin?

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Catoptric
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Catoptric » Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:36 pm

Video for those shedding a "crocodile tears" regarding Ukraine "invasion"
https://rumble.com/vw10ey-video-for-tho ... asion.html

The gist is that media bias, virtue signaling, and ignorance of the impact perpetrated by government interests, has created hypocrisy of interest by those who blindly go along with whatever their governments are involved in.

Nations dominate because they exploit others, and corruption leads to kleptocracies and autocratic dictatorships.



Arguing against the video above: This was in response to a Norwegion Math Professor who seems to think the guy wasn't just blowing smoke.



The premise he is making is from the propaganda of Russia, that "Ukraine is not a country," and that "fake news" will place people in jail for 15 years, when Putin himself lied about his own troops entering Ukrainian territory or claiming to be fishing when it was alleged no Russian soldiers were encroaching on territory they were contesting.

The electricity and water, and other resources that were being routed to Crimea were shut off in protest of the illegal invasion, not because they were genocidal against "Russian" Ukrainians, and by those statistics of majority Russian-nationality deaths it's safe to say that Ukraine will appear very hostile if Russia had no intention of being accountable to their actions.

Clearly he is being spoonfed what Putin wants him to believe.
https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian.../




It would be suggesting that Putin is skirting the hegemony of NATO countries (that countries like Sweden didn't just clamor to join them along with Ukraine for no reason?) or that the pretense of occupation is based on false principles?

Unrelated? Since Putin likes to pretend he isn't corrupt and uses things like thermobaric weapons or white phosphorus which indiscriminately destroys and causes "collateral damage" such as schools or hospitals to become destroyed which is pretty typical for modern warfare apparently (as Putin did just send a missile flying into civilian buildings and did the very things that this guy is talking about Nato also doing,) perhaps go by each claim he is making and actually search the results that come up:

"NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region."

And Georgia didn't want to be controlled by Russia:

"After Georgia deported four suspected Russian spies in 2006, Russia began a full-scale diplomatic and economic war against Georgia, followed by the persecution of ethnic Georgians living in Russia. By 2008, most residents of South Ossetia had obtained Russian passports."

Sounds like Crimea? ? ?

Yugoslavia was a socialist country that was experiencing the inevitable fallout of socialism but also has a diverse group of Muslim Serbs and other groups, with a destabilized region that since the early 80s was requiring inevitable intervention (as otherwise, the whole pretense of security has the unilateral collapse of other regions influencing Nato countries?)

The belief that proxy warfare isn't being committed by US interest or NATO influences, disregards how Russia has equally participated in trying to undermine other regimes or play some role in becoming allies with destabilized governments, and would likely do more if its economic influence was more powerful than Italy.

Obviously I don't disagree that NATO isn't weary of Russian influence but to claim they didn't have an invested interest in neutralizing aggressors (such as Russia?) is kind of missing the point. When the US left Afghanistan what countries participated in cuddling up with Al Qaeda?

Perhaps the bias of opinion will factor into whether or not society is actually paying attention to the real issues, rather than picking what it wants to hear?

**** He posted this article, (NATO's eastward expansion: https://www.spiegel.de/international/wo ... QmXE5G3-9g ) arguing that 13 new nations joined NATO as result of conflicts in Europe, which Gorbechav had argued would compromise there agreement with NATO, that no territories bordering Russia would expand into their border regions. ****

And how is Ukraine involved if it wasn't a member of NATO, when Russia invaded and broke an agreement that it wouldn't be invaded? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russ ... nt-n941601

*** Argues that "whataboutisms" was rhetoric to be avoided ***

Putin's kleptocracy resulted in an annexation that was no longer supported by Ukraine's infrastructure while also acquiring potentially trillions in oil reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexatio ... _aftermath

***He pretends/thinks I'm taking the stance of US sympathy rather than a global perspective***

I'm pretty sure I point out faults in the media narrative all the time but people would rather choke on the details without providing anything of their own to critique, and merely conform blindly to whatever group they hold allegiance to.

Then provide the documents, and show what I said wasn't what NATO was designed to do (and yes, NATO isn't the U.N. which is what the US designed to have similar goals) and I'm pretty sure the NATO organization speaks for more than just US interest (as after all, didn't Trump want to get out of it because he felt he didn't want to be controlled by it?) Wasn't Russia's intention to take part in it intended to also control the narrative, and didn't they fail to address the conflict in addition to competing interest?

And yes, I think it's pretty evident that the US has overstepped its boundaries on numerous occasions, but at least Europe feels a greater threat to their peace by having to deal with Russia's interest and desire to maintain relevancy.

NATO organization expanding wasn't beyond reproach, I figured neither was Russia (I guess I assumed too much?)


***He argues that a government document was biased yet presented the video with the need to be open-minded of the war narrative. He is using a red herring of a document to discredit the entire bases for the argument (which he refused to address from the video and how it undermines integrity for the narrative.) ***


The same to be said of the argument for a government document addressing concerns (much as I also find on government servers pdf documents about Roswell to dispel the myriad of claims which make a mockery of the truth, I figured neither should that be seen as an unwarranted proposition; unless you chose to address the argument of the topic as well?

So I assume the real argument here isn't about the transparency of opinions and hypocrisy of concerns for people, but rather the unabashed assumption that nations can do whatever they want, and do so whenever they prefer to think of the world on "black and white" terms.

If the geopolitical climate affects NATO countries then it affects them (and the only real reason for Russia to feel threatened is if it wants to not be questioned on its sovereignty, which apparently it chooses to flex because it has a bunch of weapons it wants to utilize and decides to funnel money into such projects under the belief that it's threatened; well Ukraine wasn't a threat to it, or was Russia not blundering it's own hypocrisy that NATO shouldn't do it, so why should't they not rescind upon the agreement?

Also, didn't Cicero state that a Republic (or Democracy) can only function when people are held accountable?

"In The Republic, Cicero argued that laws are not enough for a just state. There also must be liberty. "But if liberty is not equally enjoyed by all the citizens," he declared, "it is not liberty at all." Therefore, liberty cannot exist unless "the people have the supreme power" in government."

That Putin having taken on Autocratic intent has then disregarded what makes a government a representative of the people and has preferred instead to not hold himself at the mercy of any government he doesn't have control over.



*************************



One thing to look into is the 'War Hero/Criminal?' Stepan Bandera, founder of a Ukrainian rebel army that fought the Soviet Union in the 1930s and '40s (wasn't this at the time that Soviet/Mother Russia was creating a manmade famine at at time with the highest production ever recorded for grain, and exporting it or having people die deliberately?)

Hero Or Villain? Historical Ukrainian Figure Symbolizes Today's Feud



A father died trying to escort his dogs to safety while his son looked on and recorded it begging him not to die.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -lane.html

But no, Putin is the pacifist and the Ukrainians are Nazi's and Gangsters. . . The trick is to make them the 'other' people so you can ridicule them and belittle them.



Putin told the Russian soldiers they were on a training mission when crossing the Ukraine border?
https://ondiplomacywarfare.quora.com/Wh ... ype=answer

Texas redneck that claims he would only return to the US to liberate it. . . Believes he is lberating Ukraine. . .
https://www.newsweek.com/russell-texas- ... nk-1684585
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Julius_Van_Der_Beak » Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:44 am

The tone of discourse regarding foreign affairs recently is making me "nostalgic" for the dialectic of the sophisticated internet salons of my high school years at the dawn of the new millennium.

Clearly everyone has learned a great deal in two decades. This is a promising sign of some good decisions and sensible choices to come.

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Madrigal
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Madrigal » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:00 pm

Just haven't had the time to post here since. I'm frustrated the talks failed again today. Is this guy really prolonging the war on his people because he won't give up the Donbass? What the fuck does he expect will happen if this is allowed to continue? Part of me thinks Zelensky is stalling for NATO involvement, which would be criminal if true. The more this lasts the more I think this guy is letting his people be slaughtered.

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Senseye
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Senseye » Thu Mar 10, 2022 7:41 pm

Putin is not negotiating in good faith. It's just theater for him as part of his propaganda effort to claim he is really trying to save Ukraine.

Your insinuation this is anyone but Putin's fault is alarming.

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Julius_Van_Der_Beak » Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:45 pm

I wouldn't say it's Zelensky's fault, but I also think there was a kind of reckless hubristic arrogance in post-Cold War US foreign policy that kind of pushed Russia down this path. Or rather, I would say that I think there is a very good chance that if different choices were made, Russia could have gone in a different direction. This is the long term view, however, zoomed out across decades. In the short term, I would say that nobody held a gun to his head and forced Putin to invade.

I hope this analogy is limited in its scope, but the US behavior reminds me pf how post-Bismarck German foreign policy had moved from insuring its own security to trying to become a world power, alienating potential partners in the process (namely Russia and the UK).

The fact that a lot of people regard this as anathema to say even now really reminds me of the attitude in the US after 9/11, which is what my sarcastic post was alluding towards. 2000 was really the first time I started becoming politically aware so I tend to view lots of things through that the lens of those years. It also didn't hurt that at my high school there were some teachers who showed us Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.

People back then didn't want to talk about the U.S funding the Mujahadeen or the US supporting Saddam when he was actually doing the gassing of his own people that everyone kept bringing up.

I have no idea what the discussion is like in other countries.

The situation isn't really the same, I think, but I think the way people discuss it so that the US always has to be the 100% good guy is. Even after Iraq and Afghanistan it's still pretty taboo to suggest it isn't. It just makes me shake my head.

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:01 pm

Madrigal wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:00 pm
Just haven't had the time to post here since. I'm frustrated the talks failed again today. Is this guy really prolonging the war on his people because he won't give up the Donbass? What the fuck does he expect will happen if this is allowed to continue? Part of me thinks Zelensky is stalling for NATO involvement, which would be criminal if true. The more this lasts the more I think this guy is letting his people be slaughtered.
I see that point of view quite a lot. "Why doesn't he just give up and give Putin what he wants?". France could have easily stopped WWII by stopping Germany remilitarising the Rhineland in 1936. There's no evidence that capitulating to blatant breaches of the rules based international order stops further breaches and prevents escalation.

And anyway; Putin is losing. He's got maybe three weeks... (and he can never hold Ukraine even if he takes it, it would bankrupt Russia).

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