Run-up to WW3

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Senseye
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Senseye » Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:54 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:33 pm
Show that you're something other than a bloodthirsty old warmonger cheering for younger men to be sent their deaths from the comfort and safety of your home.
I see, you aren't trying to makes sense, just trolling. Carry on.

Dot
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Dot » Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:46 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:33 pm
Dot wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:58 am
Yes, I wasn't referring to his views as Russian propaganda, I was referring to your own as such. I don't believe you've actually watched that video you keep bringing up to support all your points. You probably - like most people who consume Russian propaganda - just read some manipulative summary of it on social media and impulsively took it at its word. Also noted that the comments are turned off on youtube so that the bubble created by the leading title doesn't get burst. In the video, he makes an uncomfortable politician-y squirm in response to an apparently leading question, and says that he understands that 'some percentage of Ukrainians' - not himself - view Bandera as a hero 'since he defended Ukrainian freedom,' but then adds that the positive commemoration of him is 'not quite right.' The video clip ends there, but here's what he says afterwards:
"to be honest, in general, what to say about it, I'm absolutely fine with decommunization, the society has chosen and it's normal, I think it's just how you say there are undeniable heroes for me, so for me, look at the fact that Stepan Bandera is a hero for some percentage of Ukrainians and this is normal cool this is one of those people who defended the freedom of Ukraine"

"An uncomfortable politician-y squirm" :rolleyes:
but then adds that the positive commemoration of him is 'not quite right.'
"but I think that you know that when we make so many streets you understand the bridges and call them by the same name I think it's not quite right"

It's about the fact that they've been naming dozens of different streets after him. It's a response to people questioning why they're replacing the names of so many Russian cultural figures who were great artists and such with a guy who was a terrorist Nazi collaborator.
It's both of those things: the immediate context of the interview is that Zelenskyy is expressing his wish that they would name streets after football stars rather than Bandera, and the larger context is that culture wars were flaring because the parliament of Ukraine cancelled Bandera's status as a "hero of Ukraine." You're grasping at straws if this interview segment, which he begins by saying 'some percentage of Ukrainians" like Bandera and ends by saying he wishes these same Ukrainians would commemorate someone else instead, is the best evidence you can find for Zelenskyy himself being a Bandera supporter.

Here's a clip of him parodying your antisemitic remark before he even became president:
[VIDEO][/VIDEO}
The guy he sarcastically calls a Banderite in the clip is also Jewish.
Moreover, it's an antisemitic trope to call a Jewish person (Zelenskyy) a Nazi sympathizer.
No, it's a tired old defense of fascism to claim that any criticism of a person who happens to be Jewish is antisemitism, straight from the playbook of apartheid Israel. Zelensky being Jewish is completely irrelevant and is not a defense against accusations of being a Nazi sympathizer when he's on camera literally praising a Nazi.
LOL, you didn't make just 'any criticism of a person who happens to be Jewish.' You called a Jewish person (whose great grandparents were killed by Nazis) a Nazi sympathizer. This isn't about Israel's oppression of Palestine, this is about you parroting Putin's dog-whistle about the Jewish president of Ukraine.

Zelenskyy would've been one of the people first in line to be killed by Bandera because of his ethnicity.

This is the sort of uncomfortable situation you're going to find yourself in repeatedly if Lavrov continues to be your main source of information on the new great patriotic war.
"decommunization" is a euphemism for this long campaign to eradicate the Russian language and culture from this region. It refers also to banning Russian literature and music, banning the speaking of the Russian language in schools, banning Russian religious organizations...

AKA "cultural genocide", and a violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
This is propaganda taken from Lavrov: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... te-repeat/

There is no campaign to eradicate the Russian language in Ukraine and 30% of Ukrainians speak it (many as their first language). Much of the rest of the statement is also false.
I'm saying that the tyrants in charge in Kyiv are Nazi sympathizers if not outright fascists. Most of the Ukrainians are trapped in this conflict by them and would prefer to be allowed to leave the country.
This is so fucking absurd. Russians have an excuse because they've been indoctrinated their whole lives. You've just got self-esteem issues and you decided to use this war as a rhetorical tool to puff yourself up with.

A variety of things happen Ukrainians stuck in the occupied regions. Some are tortured, others are murdered and put in mass graves, and many of the remaining ones are sent to filtration camps in Russia if they want to leave. They've kidnapped anywhere between 13,000 - 307,000 Ukrainian children and sent them to be adopted and reeducated by Russians in isolated regions that they will never be able to escape from.

The Ukrainian government urged refugees NOT to return to Ukraine, and urged current residents to leave, while the war was ongoing because this is the kind of thing that can happen. The deputy prime minister:

"“I wanted to ask people not to return. We need to survive the winter...To return now is to risk yourself and your children, your vulnerable relatives."
https://www.statista.com/chart/28579/nu ... ning-home/

And yet, more than six million voluntarily chose to go back to Ukraine as of October last year. One of the refugees was my friend's grandmother, who was at least in her eighties and struggled to walk. She returned from Prague - alone - in December, because she could no longer bear to be away from home.

It's true that many men aren't allowed to leave the country, and yes, that is terrible. It doesn't justify you make up random stuff like "most Ukrainians" are banned from leaving even though they want to, because you apparently felt the facts alone weren't bad enough.
It's characteristic of Russian propaganda to extrapolate from that and say, as you have, that Ukrainians as a whole are Nazis and to suggest that they have an interest in attacking Poland.
I said no such thing, stop making shit up.
Was your obsession with the word 'gaslighting' a preemptive thing?

Me: "Ukraine isn't trying to 'genocide' Poland anymore."
You: "That would be pretty hard for them in their current position, wouldn't it."

You're incapable of genuine discussion.

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Catoptric
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Catoptric » Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:58 pm

Iranian nationals

'NUKE PLOT' ARREST Man arrested by anti-terrorism cops after deadly uranium seized in package at Heathrow airport
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21052081/ ... -heathrow/



PUTIN'S FALL Russia faces civil war that would leave millions dead as rumours rage ‘sick’ Vlad could step down in 2023, says warlord (Igor Ghirkin, the asshole behind a civilian plane attack)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/21051540/ ... ions-dead/

*********


Update: While discussing Iran, it's helpful to put into perspective:

George H.W. Bush:
Mourn Bush Sr, but don’t celebrate him for what he did to America and the world
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/mou ... the-world/

Spoiler
Show
What seemed to be Bush’s greatest triumph at the time has proved to be his ugliest legacy. The Persian Gulf War that Bush launched in 1991 to eject Saddam Hussein’s forces from Kuwait was a splendid success at first. But its aftermath was nothing but bitter. Hussein did not fall from power, and those Iraqis who rose up against him in hopes of support from Washington were slaughtered. His administration had a way of sending mixed signals that got people killed: shortly before he invaded Kuwait, Hussein and his foreign minister met with Bush’s ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. She told him Arab conflicts like the Iraq-Kuwait border dispute were none of America’s business. A week later, Iraq seized Kuwait.
Even George H.W. Bush now denounces his son's "axis of evil" speech. And he's right.
https://www.vox.com/2015/11/5/9675942/b ... vil-speech
Spoiler
Show
But as Dexter Filkins reported recently in the New Yorker, Bush's "axis of evil" speech killed any such opening, and caught America's own diplomats by surprise:

The good will didn’t last. In January, 2002, [American diplomat Ryan] Crocker, who was by then the deputy chief of the American Embassy in Kabul, was awakened one night by aides, who told him that President George W. Bush, in his State of the Union Address, had named Iran as part of an "Axis of Evil." Like many senior diplomats, Crocker was caught off guard. He saw the [lead Iranian] negotiator the next day at the U.N. compound in Kabul, and he was furious. "You completely damaged me," Crocker recalled him saying. "Suleimani is in a tearing rage. He feels compromised." [Qassem Suleimani, head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards' Quds Force, is one of Iran's most powerful military officials.]

The negotiator told Crocker that, at great political risk, Suleimani had been contemplating a complete reëvaluation of the United States, saying, "Maybe it’s time to rethink our relationship with the Americans." The Axis of Evil speech brought the meetings to an end. Reformers inside the government, who had advocated a rapprochement with the United States, were put on the defensive. Recalling that time, Crocker shook his head. "We were just that close," he said. "One word in one speech changed history."

And Trump killing Suleimani
Making of a martyr: how Qassem Suleimani was hunted down
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... unted-down
Spoiler
Show
On the tarmac was a familiar face, Suleimani’s long-time associate Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, the Iraqi leader of the Iranian-backed Shia militia Kata’ib Hezbollah, whose supporters had laid siege to the US embassy in Baghdad for two days last week in retaliation for US airstrikes that killed 25 militia fighters on 29 December.
And the fallout from that "diplomacy," the Iranian drones are really just on trial runs for Russia, in retaliation. Initially, I was thinking the drones were effective, but it turns out they are woefully inadequate.

'I was in Iraq during the assassination of General Soleimani. Trump has made a huge mistake' - In death, it now seems the Major-General will achieve what he couldn't in life
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/tr ... 73911.html

Something to think about:

Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders?
https://hbr.org/2013/08/why-do-so-many-incompetent-men
Last edited by Catoptric on Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Dot
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Dot » Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:51 am



Well-known fact, victims of the Final Solution 2.0 just invaded a neighboring country where they are successfully conducting mass torture, abductions, and killings. This isn't genocidal at all because most of the 'people' in Ukraine are just proxies for US aggression and the good ones are being freed into Russia. This makes perfect sense if you think about it for long enough and have the correct mix of bigoted Christian Nationalist instincts.

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starjots
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by starjots » Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:10 am

Senseye wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:45 pm
Political opinions aside, it's the Russians who are invading, bombing and killing (often civilian targets) these days. Not the Ukrainians, so it's blatantly obvious who the bad guys are.
You left out conquering, as Russia literally annexed large portions of Ukraine last fall in the middle of the war. I agree with you, it's blatantly obvious.

I haven't seen any stories on extreme energy shortages in Europe yet (not that I've looked), so I'm cautiously hopeful.On the other hand, Russia has embraced a war of attrition with a 3-1 population advantage.

Dot
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Dot » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:17 pm

starjots wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:10 am
Senseye wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:45 pm
Political opinions aside, it's the Russians who are invading, bombing and killing (often civilian targets) these days. Not the Ukrainians, so it's blatantly obvious who the bad guys are.
You left out conquering, as Russia literally annexed large portions of Ukraine last fall in the middle of the war. I agree with you, it's blatantly obvious.

I haven't seen any stories on extreme energy shortages in Europe yet (not that I've looked), so I'm cautiously hopeful.On the other hand, Russia has embraced a war of attrition with a 3-1 population advantage.
yeah it's been pretty much fine. Of course the Russian government says otherwise. This is a map they tweeted a few days ago, forgetting a few important territorial quirks in what's now "Russia":
I never remember how to resize images
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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:17 am

lmao @Dot calling me antisemitic. I can only imagine what kind of intellectual wasteland you've been spending your time in to not recognize how embarrassingly stupid that is. Maybe I'm Jewish and you're the antisemite! idiotic, seriously

I have never heard of Lavrov and dgaf. I've literally only quoted Zelensky and the Ukrainian government.

One last time: Zelensky: "so for me, look at the fact that Stepan Bandera is a hero for some percentage of Ukrainians and this is normal cool this is one of those people who defended the freedom of Ukraine"

hilarious to watch you try to deny that he's praising Bandera. Idk what else to call it but gaslighting when you insist that he's not saying what he's on camera saying. It's at the "there are five lights" level of doublespeak.0

And you're just gonna pretend that the parliament of Ukraine didn't also very recently put out a tweet praising Bandera.

It's all "Russian propaganda"... smh. Deny and deflect.

It is a matter of open record that Ukraine has banned Russian literature and music https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politi ... raine.html

Ukraine has banned Russian religious organizations https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/ukra ... -to-russia

Ukraine has banned the Russian language from its schools https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukra ... SKBN1E227K

This has all been going on long before last year and it's what Zelensky is referring to when he says that he supports "decommunization".
It's true that many men aren't allowed to leave the country
No, it's true that essentially all men between 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country. It's also true that most Ukrainians don't want that. https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/15/uk ... an-rights/

So it's disgusting watching privileged warmongers here trying to claim that Ukrainians want to fight for their country, or something about "democracy" or "freedom". They are trapped there and forced to fight by a government that worships Nazis.
You're incapable of genuine discussion.
Me: I said no such thing
You: quotes me saying no such thing

you're right, I'm incapable of genuine discussion with you. You're like a politician, bald-faced lying and counting on nobody to have the patience to check the facts.
starjots wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:10 am
I agree with you, it's blatantly obvious.
It is blatantly obvious that the Russian government are bad guys, yes.

It's also blatantly obvious that the Ukrainian government are bad guys.

I realize that one of those is much less comfortable for you to acknowledge, but with the facts in front of you it's either that or willingly choose to support evil. Be exactly who you want to be.
I haven't seen any stories on extreme energy shortages in Europe yet (not that I've looked)
It's been a record-breaking warm winter which is lucky for all those people in places like Slovakia and Czech where it's either Russian gas or firewood. https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/ ... ar-europe/

Dot
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Dot » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:07 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:17 am
lmao @Dot calling me antisemitic. I can only imagine what kind of intellectual wasteland you've been spending your time in to not recognize how embarrassingly stupid that is. Maybe I'm Jewish and you're the antisemite! idiotic, seriously
No you're totally right in retrospect, calling a Jewish descendent of Holocaust victims a "literal Nazi" is the Pinnacle of Discourse.

I know you're simply ignorant and don't know about the larger Eastern European context in which the "Jew as Nazi, Christian as victim" narrative emerged. You had a chance to learn this when I explained it to you instead of sticking your head in the sand but you've chosen to ignore it.

I Wonder Why.
hilarious to watch you try to deny that he's praising Bandera. Idk what else to call it but gaslighting when you insist that he's not saying what he's on camera saying. It's at the "there are five lights" level of doublespeak.0
If you could've come up with actual evidence that Zelenskyy himself and not just some percentage of Ukrainians like Bandera, by this point, you would have.
Me: I said no such thing
You: quotes me saying no such thing
So just to be 100% clear, you agree that your rant about the Volhynia Massacre suggests nothing about the current interest or lack thereof that Ukraine has in invading Poland, right? Putting aside the purely logistical limitations that you "ominously" referred to.
It's been a record-breaking warm winter which is lucky for all those people in places like Slovakia and Czech where it's either Russian gas or firewood. https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/ ... ar-europe/
lol you sound so fucking disappointed that we're not freezing to death. Nice lead-in to the "both sides" bullshit.
I have never heard of Lavrov and dgaf. I've literally only quoted Zelensky and the Ukrainian government [...] It's all "Russian propaganda"... smh. Deny and deflect.
I don't think Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government said the following things. You say you're not getting this info directly from Lavrov either, so where are you getting it? You've been pretty quiet about your sources for the following claims:

"After spending all this time being gaslighted about Azov battalion, about the book burnings"


I didn't address the book burnings thing before because you made so many other false claims and also I didn't find any information about it one way or another in legitimate sources. So I finally searched for it on twitter and lol, there it is. Are you just basing this on random twitter trolls.
Even Putin didn't claim Ukrainians were burning Russian books, by the way. He just compared it to the cancelling of Russian cultural events during the war.

and the banning of Russian language

Seems you've reduced this claim to only the "...in schools" part. It doesn't do your arguments any favors when you resort to hyperbole so often.

Many Ukrainians speak Russian, including your favorite 'Nazi president' in several of his speeches throughout the war (he's less fluent in Ukrainian).

""decommunization" is a euphemism for this long campaign to eradicate the Russian language and culture...AKA "cultural genocide", and a violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights."

Source? I've failed to find any legitimate body outside of Russia claiming that Ukraine has violated this covenant. The International Court of Justice called it a lie and ordered Russia to stop its invasion. A joint statement prepared by tens of legal scholars and genocide scholars concluded that this was a "mirror propaganda" campaign devised by Russia to obscure analysis of their own military actions.
https://www.icj-cij.org/public/files/ca ... -00-EN.pdf
https://newlinesinstitute.org/wp-conten ... Report.pdf

"Banning people from leaving the country is something historically only done by the worst authoritarian regimes the planet has seen - North Korea, Nazi Germany, USSR, etc."

Draft evasion ("banning them from leaving the country") was criminalized in virtually all countries that use(d) the system. That includes: Finland, Canada, France, South Korea, and the United States.

In Finland, participation in military defense (or preparations) is required of all male citizens over the age of 18, and evading the draft lands them in prison. https://intti.fi/en/about-to-enter-into ... %20Finland.

Just to be clear, I believe it's a terrible policy regardless of whether it occurs in authoritarian or democratic countries. But equating the draft with Nazism is yet another way in which you're trivializing the meaning of the term for the sake of perpetuating your mad antics.

"Most of the Ukrainians are trapped in this conflict by them and would prefer to be allowed to leave the country."

Judging by the way you're trying to worm out of this by circling back to "men 18 - 64," I assume you've dropped this claim too. But yeah, this is false.
Last edited by Dot on Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Dot
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Dot » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:47 am

I'm only bothering here because it's annoying to just leave misinformation floating around, knowing it would go unaddressed otherwise.

In a broader context, leaving aside all the mad antics of p_p, I would say that I'm concerned about Ukraine finding itself once more pulled in the direction of authoritarianism. That's typically what happens to countries embroiled in forever wars, and there are already signs that the Ukrainian government is both signing itself up for debt to forces that would encourage such, and on its own volition limiting key democratic institutions like the media. That's exactly why Ukrainians need weapons to defend themselves, regain conquered land in which their communities are trapped, and end the war as fast as possible. To understate it, the situation would not improve in either country if Russia were allowed to take all the territories they want and pursue a genocidal regime within them unhindered. Look at the political outcomes of any other perpetual war of the past that Russia involved itself in.

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Senseye
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Senseye » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:43 pm

Dot wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:47 am
I would say that I'm concerned about Ukraine finding itself once more pulled in the direction of authoritarianism. That's typically what happens to countries embroiled in forever wars, and there are already signs that the Ukrainian government is both signing itself up for debt to forces that would encourage such, and on its own volition limiting key democratic institutions like the media. That's exactly why Ukrainians need weapons to defend themselves, regain conquered land in which their communities are trapped, and end the war as fast as possible. To understate it, the situation would not improve in either country if Russia were allowed to take all the territories they want and pursue a genocidal regime within them unhindered. Look at the political outcomes of any other perpetual war of the past that Russia involved itself in.
I generally agree. If NATO just would have shown some backbone in the beginning I think this whole mess could have been avoided. Showing some backbone now would still wrap things up. Alas, dickheads like Germany's Scholtz are still in the way.

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