Run-up to WW3

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:51 am

A Ukrainian friend in Kyiv told me to watch this channel.


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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 am

I just discovered this podcast but it seems great. They have a segment explicitly about talking shit about both Democrats and Republicans, and they seem to be critical of the Western media propaganda war machine bullshit, but without the usual Alex Jones esque nuttiness that comes with that.



But the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.

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Ferrus
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Ferrus » Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 am
But the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
Strange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.
Ex falso, quodlibet

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:46 am

Ferrus wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 am
puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 am
But the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
Strange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.
When you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.

And yes it's silly to downplay the role of the USA in this conflict. This is not some regional dispute, this is the same old East vs West war.

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Ferrus
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by Ferrus » Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:47 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:46 am
When you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.
Ah yes, just as people in Britain in 1940 had an incentive to 'peaceful resolution'. Strange to say, but the world isn't solely populated by cowards.

As it is I do think there will have to be concessions made and a peace worked out. But that has to come after the fighting, as war is part of the negotiation, politics by other means as Clausewitz said. Many Ukranians might strangely be prepared to fight hard to ensure their families are not raped or kidnapped or tortured, and to be in a position where they are forced to give up the least territory and turn themselves into a prickly fortress no one wants to invade their home again. Just as Finland did through the Winter War.
Ex falso, quodlibet

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:46 am
Ferrus wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 am
puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 am
But the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
Strange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.
When you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.

And yes it's silly to downplay the role of the USA in this conflict. This is not some regional dispute, this is the same old East vs West war.
Have you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).

There's going to be lot more dead Russians before this is over.

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:22 pm

Apparently the terrorist Igor Girken is going back to war (rather than just sniping on the sidelines on Twitter). There's a $30,000 reward being offered (which looks like it's growing by the minute) for his death or capture...

Image

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:16 pm

Ferrus wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:47 am
Ah yes, just as people in Britain in 1940 had an incentive to 'peaceful resolution'. Strange to say, but the world isn't solely populated by cowards.

As it is I do think there will have to be concessions made and a peace worked out. But that has to come after the fighting, as war is part of the negotiation, politics by other means as Clausewitz said. Many Ukranians might strangely be prepared to fight hard to ensure their families are not raped or kidnapped or tortured, and to be in a position where they are forced to give up the least territory and turn themselves into a prickly fortress no one wants to invade their home again. Just as Finland did through the Winter War.
Yes, of course the people of Britain had an incentive to peaceful resolution, but by that point they had already been forced between a rock and a hard place by their imperialist war-gaming leaders. British people just trying to live their lives found themselves forced into conflict with German people just trying to live their lives by a long escalating game of geopolitics happening far above their heads.

The only reason Ukraine is not a peaceful Russian puppet state right now is because of Western interference. Euromaidan was a CIA operation (in cooperation with neonazis). The entire Ukrainian war that's been going on for 8 years is the result of this same geopolitical power struggle. And right now if the leaders cared about the people then they would be trying to negotiate to give up the occupied regions. It's ridiculous to suggest that this would result in families being raped and tortured. The people suffer because of the war that benefits the elites, that how it always has been.

Anyway, war propaganda continues to be effective so I expect to be called a coward and worse, I don't give a shit.
jyng1 wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 am
Have you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).

There's going to be lot more dead Russians before this is over.
Donbas and Kyiv have been at war for eight years. Whether you blame the Russians or the West for escalating it to this point depends for most people on which side's propaganda they get exposed to. I don't believe that anyone wants the missiles to keep flying... except for the people sitting back in protected and comfy positions, making a lot of money and political power from those missiles.

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jyng1
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by jyng1 » Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:05 am

puerile_polyp wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:16 pm
jyng1 wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 am
Have you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).

There's going to be lot more dead Russians before this is over.
Donbas and Kyiv have been at war for eight years. Whether you blame the Russians or the West for escalating it to this point depends for most people on which side's propaganda they get exposed to. I don't believe that anyone wants the missiles to keep flying... except for the people sitting back in protected and comfy positions, making a lot of money and political power from those missiles.
You didn't answer the question. Do you know anybody living there? And I don't care if FSB Colonel Igor Girken and his Little Green Men invaded the Crimea 8 years ago in the confusion after the Revolution of Dignity.

No Ukrainians are going to talk to Putin until he gets out of Ukraine... and a recent YouGov poll of 25 countries found that almost all Western Countries agree with them.

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puerile_polyp
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Re: Run-up to WW3

Post by puerile_polyp » Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:29 am

jyng1 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:05 am
You didn't answer the question. Do you know anybody living there? And I don't care if FSB Colonel Igor Girken and his Little Green Men invaded the Crimea 8 years ago in the confusion after the Revolution of Dignity.

No Ukrainians are going to talk to Putin until he gets out of Ukraine... and a recent YouGov poll of 25 countries found that almost all Western Countries agree with them.
The video I posted above shares a perspective from a journalist living there, in Donbas. The people there seem to be mostly pro-Russian. Those referendums saying so seem about as legitimate to me as Western polls saying that Ukrainians want more war. I don't really care if you're friends with people in Kyiv who want the fighting to continue. Anyone who supports war should be the one to suffer from it, but that's never how it works.

And of course other Western countries want more war in Ukraine, that was my whole point.

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