Run-up to WW3

[Senseye]

Also, I never said and do not think that Russians are evil. You're just flailing at random imaginary arguments.

Maybe not all Russians, but the Putin regime certainly is, and many Russians appear stupid enough to fall for state propaganda (I would term these people evil by association). If you won't say it I will.

Anyhow, I am not quite sure what disingenuous argument p_p is trying now, false equivalency maybe. He seems to associate the odd quote or statement by Ukrainians about some Austrian nazi back in WW2 (Bandera) to mean the Ukrainians are as bad as the Russians. As I understand it this Bandera chap was a fervent anti-communist, and the Soviet communist regime was oppressing Ukraine back in the day, so some Ukrainians like the guy, enemy of my enemy kind of thing. It's not something I really know about or consider relevant to the current conflict.

Political opinions aside, it's the Russians who are invading, bombing and killing (often civilian targets) these days. Not the Ukrainians, so it's blatantly obvious who the bad guys are.

[Dot]

Also, I never said and do not think that Russians are evil. You're just flailing at random imaginary arguments.

Maybe not all Russians, but the Putin regime certainly is, and many Russians appear stupid enough to fall for state propaganda (I would term these people evil by association). If you won't say it I will.

I think the problem with the word is that it stands in the way of understanding motivations/mechanations. I think I already wrote a while back here about the prison system in Russia, and how people who protest are sent to prison or mobilized. So it's understandable to me that there isn't more of that. And I think there's also a human tendency to justify your actions (or lack thereof) retroactively - so if someone has a choice between seeing themselves as a coward because they didn't protest (ie basically kill themselves for the cause) or a noble victim who's just trying to get by, they're going to choose the latter option a lot of the time. I'm sure a similar percent of any other group of people would make the same choice.

It's true that even smart and educated Russians often had idiotic beliefs even before the war (similarly, this is universal quality of nationalists, not a uniquely Russian thing). When I was in Russia, we were staying with a relatively progressive family, but they were moderately pro-Putin. And they also thought it was a nice small talk activity to show my Czech husband and I their Soviet memorabilia. And it was kind of interesting, I like historical objects, but it's also interesting that it didn't even cross their minds that it could be offensive.

70% of Russians see Stalin in a positive light, it's just a totally different intellectual environment there than in most other countries. When I was at university here in CZ, years ago, a history professor (who we got fired eventually for being an asshole), asked all the Russian students to raise their hands on the first day of class, and then told them that they were all going to fail the class because they'd been indoctrinated into bullshit their whole lives. He gave them F's on oral exams before they even had the chance to say anything. Extreme case, but I think that's often the gist that Russians get when they step outside the bubble. They can choose between feeling humiliated or believing they're the heroes of everything. So I have some sympathy for their ignorance.

I wouldn't call it evil, just depressing. I'd definitely add though that there are many things and individuals in this war that I would call evil. I showed this video of the former (killed) Russian-installed head of Kherson to other people who assumed it was a parody, maybe a subversive gesture:

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

But it's not and it's pretty standard for Russian propaganda. The guy who made this video also filmed himself swinging his baby daughter around his head by her ankles and laughing. The more outrageously brutal and insane they can show themselves to be, the higher they can climb in the hierarchy. I just picked that video because it's entertaining but all the propaganda is similarly extreme.

Anyhow, I am not quite sure what disingenuous argument p_p is trying now, false equivalency maybe. He seems to associate the odd quote or statement by Ukrainians about some Austrian nazi back in WW2 (Bandera) to mean the Ukrainians are as bad as the Russians. As I understand it this Bandera chap was a fervent anti-communist, and the Soviet communist regime was oppressing Ukraine back in the day, so some Ukrainians like the guy, enemy of my enemy kind of thing. It's not something I really know about or consider relevant to the current conflict.

Russian propagandists halfheartedly try to use it as a wedge issue between Poland and Ukraine. It's complicated and I don't know as much about it as I should but my dad summarized it in an email to me a long time ago like this "[the family going to Odessa] was in the face of ethnic cleansing, which wiped out the Polish population in that area, Volhynia. Zaslav, or Iziaslav (Pol. Zasław Ukr. Ізя́слав) was the other nearby town, a very ancient place, oldest in the region, it also had a large Jewish population, which the Germans killed. As a kind of caution: often the subject of Polish-Ukrainian relations centers about relations of that region, it contains about as much anger for both sides as does the Holocaust for Jews. The Ukrainians exterminated the Polish population in Volhynia in acts of horrendous cruelty. Polish armies stepped in and committed similar horrors on Ukrainians. This is on top of a long history of many Ukrainian uprisings against Poland (ask [my husband] about one such, detailed in Ogniem I Mieczem). The region with all these towns is now named after a leader of Ukrainian revolt against Poland, Khmelnytskyi Oblast. All this is a very delicate subject in both countries."

Political opinions aside, it's the Russians who are invading, bombing and killing (often civilian targets) these days. Not the Ukrainians, so it's blatantly obvious who the bad guys are.

^yes, what it boils down to is that Ukrainians are doing everything they can to prevent themselves and their families from being tortured and murdered and to suggest they should stop protecting themselves is [I can't pick an adjective].

[puerile_polyp]

As for the rest, I'd reiterate that most of your views here are too absurd to engage with.

My views? That's Zelensky speaking into the camera. Those are official statements from the Ukrainian government. What's absurd is you trying to write that off as "Russian propaganda".

And frankly it's kinda nauseating that you would try to invoke your exterminated family members for cred (?) as you defend and apologize for supporters of their murderers.

As I understand it this Bandera chap was a fervent anti-communist, and the Soviet communist regime was oppressing Ukraine back in the day, so some Ukrainians like the guy, enemy of my enemy kind of thing. It's not something I really know about or consider relevant to the current conflict.

Not surprised at all to see you trying to apologize for the Nazi national hero of Ukraine.

After spending all this time being gaslighted about Azov battalion, about the book burnings and the banning of Russian language, about the attacks on ethnic Russians, here we have official statements praising Nazis and it won't shake your loyalty.

Political opinions aside, it's the Russians who are invading, bombing and killing (often civilian targets) these days. Not the Ukrainians, so it's blatantly obvious who the bad guys are.

Lmao, now apply this logic to the war machine you've been rooting for like it's Monday Night football. Spoiler alert: you won't.

You're both warmongering bootlickers arguing in bad faith. And simping for literal Nazis at that. Disgusting.

[Dot]

As for the rest, I'd reiterate that most of your views here are too absurd to engage with.

My views? That's Zelensky speaking into the camera. Those are official statements from the Ukrainian government. What's absurd is you trying to write that off as "Russian propaganda".

Yes, I wasn't referring to his views as Russian propaganda, I was referring to your own as such. I don't believe you've actually watched that video you keep bringing up to support all your points. You probably - like most people who consume Russian propaganda - just read some manipulative summary of it on social media and impulsively took it at its word. Also noted that the comments are turned off on youtube so that the bubble created by the leading title doesn't get burst. In the video, he makes an uncomfortable politician-y squirm in response to an apparently leading question, and says that he understands that 'some percentage of Ukrainians' - not himself - view Bandera as a hero 'since he defended Ukrainian freedom,' but then adds that the positive commemoration of him is 'not quite right.' The video clip ends there, but here's what he says afterwards:

"But we should remember modern day heroes, the heroes of art, the heroes of literature, all heroes of Ukraine. Why aren't we naming [streets] by their names – the heroes who unite Ukraine today? There is such a tension in society that we must do everything possible to unite Ukraine. I was once asked why wasn't any street named after Andriy Shevchenko [Ukrainian football star] ? He is a hero for me, I really think so."

Moreover, the context of the statement is that far-right politicians kept pushing for the Hero of Ukraine Award for Bandera to be reinstated, which the majority (including Zelenskyy) refused to do. In the most recent election, this far right movement won 2% of the vote in Ukraine, which is far less than similar far right movements have recently won in most Western countries.

Ukraine had a brutal history in which its population included both victims and perpetrators of horrendous violence. It currently has a minority far-right political movement that has become increasingly marginalized over the years but remains a threat.

It's characteristic of Russian propaganda to extrapolate from that and say, as you have, that Ukrainians as a whole are Nazis and to suggest that they have an interest in attacking Poland. Moreover, it's an antisemitic trope to call a Jewish person (Zelenskyy) a Nazi sympathizer. That's one of the reasons why Putin does it, to delegitimize Jewish voices. I accept that you're just doing it out of ignorance and therefore, you earn my badge of Not Evil, Just Annoying. But in eastern Europe, it supports a broader antisemitic narrative:

"The dominant version of antisemitism alive in parts of eastern Europe today is that Jews employ the Holocaust to seize the victimhood narrative from the “real” victims of the Nazis, who are Russian Christians (or other non-Jewish eastern Europeans). Those who embrace Russian Christian nationalist ideology will be especially susceptible to this strain of antisemitism...By claiming that the aim of the invasion is to “denazify” Ukraine, Putin appeals to the myths of contemporary eastern European antisemitism – that a global cabal of Jews were (and are) the real agents of violence against Russian Christians and the real victims of the Nazis were not the Jews, but rather this group. Russian Christians are targets of a conspiracy by a global elite, who, using the vocabulary of liberal democracy and human rights, attack the Christian faith and the Russian nation. Putin’s propaganda is not aimed at an obviously skeptical west, but rather appeals domestically to this strain of Christian nationalism."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... m-denazify

And frankly it's kinda nauseating that you would try to invoke your exterminated family members for cred (?) as you defend and apologize for supporters of their murderers.

I advise that you take a breath, spend a few extra minutes vetting any future propaganda links, and also take a moment to actually read my past comments if you want to continue the argument. In your favorite but apparently unwatched (by you) video, Zelenskyy does not say he supports Bandera. I never defended the far right members of the current Ukrainian government (and by the way, there are none, because they failed to pass the 5% threshold).

It seems that you just found out about the Volhynia Massacre and thought to yourself 'omg, this is it, this is the validation I've been looking for! No one will know about this, it's this secret historical fact that I have unearthed and that'll put everyone to shame because it proves all Ukrainians are Nazis!' It's just peak p_p, condescending to 'explain' it to me and in the same breath hinging a moral tirade about Nazis and genocide denial on an antisemitic caricature.

[Senseye]

Lmao, now apply this logic to the war machine you've been rooting for like it's Monday Night football. Spoiler alert: you won't.

You're both warmongering bootlickers arguing in bad faith. And simping for literal Nazis at that. Disgusting.

I can't even make sense of your argument it is so daft. Literal nazis? Please. That's pure Russian propaganda. I don't equate a few statements about a guy 75 years back to invading/bombing and killing civilians. I can see you do. No point in trying to discuss it further.

Rooting for Ukraine to defend itself is hardly rooting for a war machine. But right, Ukraine is a nazi regime (see some dumb comments made by a few Ukraine politicians). I guess Russia is doing the world a favor after all.

You should move there and join the Russian army. I'm sure they would be happy to feature you in their propaganda.

[Dot]

I don't equate a few statements about a guy 75 years back to invading/bombing and killing civilians.

And I'd reiterate that Zelenskyy, unlike those fringe and disempowered politicians, didn't even make any such statements - he never said that he personally supports Bandera in that video or anywhere else, only that 'some percentage' of Ukrainians do. In the same interview, he goes on to make similarly vague statements about a variety of things - for example, that he wouldn't ban abortion "because it's impossible to ban" and kind of tacks on that people have a right to choose as an afterthought. It's a squirrely and irritating series of responses, but far from a nazi endorsement. Here's the full interview: https://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/vladimir-ze ... 46435.html

The official stance of the current Ukrainian government is decisively opposed to Bandera, hence their recall of an ambassador who said he was merely trapped between two evils. https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rec ... h-vidnosin

Historical revisionism can be and often is a stepping stone to fascist violence. That's been the case in the United States and Russia. It's a constant threat in Poland that so far hasn't materialized, but things are getting worse there every year. In Ukraine, progressive voices were actually strengthening, and approval of Bandera steadily declining alongside them, though at a slower rate. (Of course, the war might put a stop to that by reinvigorating nationalism.)

[Dot]

https://discomfortzone.substack.com/p/u ... tter&sd=pf

[Dot]

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ra ... ive-poland

(The Ukraine section starts about halfway down)

[Catoptric]

Putie-poo appointed a General, nicknamed Armageddon (because he carries a Nuclear briefcase?)

Al Jazeera: Who is Russia's new Ukraine war commander Valery Gerasimov?.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/1 ... -gerasimov

Spoiler

Show

Gerasimov was appointed chief of the general staff and deputy defence minister by Putin on November 9, 2012, three days after Putin’s longtime ally Sergey Shoigu was made defence minister.

Each of the men holds one of the three nuclear briefcases that can order a Russian nuclear attack.

Gerasimov played key roles in Russia’s seizure of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 and in Russia’s game-changing military support for President Bashar al-Assad in Syrian’s war.

[puerile_polyp]

Yes, I wasn't referring to his views as Russian propaganda, I was referring to your own as such. I don't believe you've actually watched that video you keep bringing up to support all your points. You probably - like most people who consume Russian propaganda - just read some manipulative summary of it on social media and impulsively took it at its word. Also noted that the comments are turned off on youtube so that the bubble created by the leading title doesn't get burst. In the video, he makes an uncomfortable politician-y squirm in response to an apparently leading question, and says that he understands that 'some percentage of Ukrainians' - not himself - view Bandera as a hero 'since he defended Ukrainian freedom,' but then adds that the positive commemoration of him is 'not quite right.' The video clip ends there, but here's what he says afterwards:

"to be honest, in general, what to say about it, I'm absolutely fine with decommunization, the society has chosen and it's normal, I think it's just how you say there are undeniable heroes for me, so for me, look at the fact that Stepan Bandera is a hero for some percentage of Ukrainians and this is normal cool this is one of those people who defended the freedom of Ukraine"

"An uncomfortable politician-y squirm"

but then adds that the positive commemoration of him is 'not quite right.'

"but I think that you know that when we make so many streets you understand the bridges and call them by the same name I think it's not quite right"

It's about the fact that they've been naming dozens of different streets after him. It's a response to people questioning why they're replacing the names of so many Russian cultural figures who were great artists and such with a guy who was a terrorist Nazi collaborator.

"decommunization" is a euphemism for this long campaign to eradicate the Russian language and culture from this region. It refers also to banning Russian literature and music, banning the speaking of the Russian language in schools, banning Russian religious organizations...

AKA "cultural genocide", and a violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

It's characteristic of Russian propaganda to extrapolate from that and say, as you have, that Ukrainians as a whole are Nazis and to suggest that they have an interest in attacking Poland.

I said no such thing, stop making shit up.

Moreover, it's an antisemitic trope to call a Jewish person (Zelenskyy) a Nazi sympathizer.

No, it's a tired old defense of fascism to claim that any criticism of a person who happens to be Jewish is antisemitism, straight from the playbook of apartheid Israel. Zelensky being Jewish is completely irrelevant and is not a defense against accusations of being a Nazi sympathizer when he's on camera literally praising a Nazi.

I never defended the far right members of the current Ukrainian government (and by the way, there are none

"the Verkhovna Rada, the unicameral parliament of Ukraine, on Sunday tweeted a photo of the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian army, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhny, next to a portrait of Bandera, alongside several of Bandera's quotes"

That's not the twitter account of some fringe minority members. That's the official one for the whole body.

What are the "propaganda links" you're referring to? This is straight from the mouths of the Ukrainian government.

All you're doing with these lame gaslighting attempts is cementing my low opinion of your character.

As far as "the Ukrainians as a whole are Nazis", that's as far from what I'm saying as can be. I'm saying that the tyrants in charge in Kyiv are Nazi sympathizers if not outright fascists. Most of the Ukrainians are trapped in this conflict by them and would prefer to be allowed to leave the country.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/15/uk ... an-rights/

Banning people from leaving the country is something historically only done by the worst authoritarian regimes the planet has seen - North Korea, Nazi Germany, USSR, etc

I can't even make sense of your argument it is so daft. Literal nazis? Please. That's pure Russian propaganda. I don't equate a few statements about a guy 75 years back to invading/bombing and killing civilians. I can see you do. No point in trying to discuss it further.

Rooting for Ukraine to defend itself is hardly rooting for a war machine. But right, Ukraine is a nazi regime (see some dumb comments made by a few Ukraine politicians). I guess Russia is doing the world a favor after all.

You should move there and join the Russian army. I'm sure they would be happy to feature you in their propaganda.

You can't make sense of it? Well maybe it was unfair to say you're arguing in bad faith, maybe you're just dumb.

I haven't said one word praising Putin or the Russian army, but since you're such a fan of the Ukraine regime why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go there? They are fielding old men. Show that you're something other than a bloodthirsty old warmonger cheering for younger men to be sent their deaths from the comfort and safety of your home.