Re: Run-up to WW3
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:51 am
A Ukrainian friend in Kyiv told me to watch this channel.
Strange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 amBut the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
When you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.Ferrus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 amStrange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 amBut the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
Ah yes, just as people in Britain in 1940 had an incentive to 'peaceful resolution'. Strange to say, but the world isn't solely populated by cowards.puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:46 amWhen you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.
Have you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:46 amWhen you say "Ukraine" who do you mean? I think the people living there have a lot of incentives for a peaceful resolution. The ones with no incentive to surrender are the same ones conscripting those people and not allowing them to leave.Ferrus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:21 amStrange, I thought Putin escalating to try to salvage his long term goals and Ukraine not having many incentives to surrender was the main reason peace is remote for now. But silly me, I forgot the rest of the world has no agency and is just a canvass for Americans to narcisstically project their domestic politics onto.puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:46 amBut the most important thing that's said in this episode is this: This is meant to be another forever war, just like Afghanistan. That's what USA wants, it's why they'll sabotage any peace attempts in this proxy war. They see it as, we make a killing selling weapons and gas to Europe, they spend their lives and livelihood grinding down the East.
And yes it's silly to downplay the role of the USA in this conflict. This is not some regional dispute, this is the same old East vs West war.
Yes, of course the people of Britain had an incentive to peaceful resolution, but by that point they had already been forced between a rock and a hard place by their imperialist war-gaming leaders. British people just trying to live their lives found themselves forced into conflict with German people just trying to live their lives by a long escalating game of geopolitics happening far above their heads.Ferrus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:47 amAh yes, just as people in Britain in 1940 had an incentive to 'peaceful resolution'. Strange to say, but the world isn't solely populated by cowards.
As it is I do think there will have to be concessions made and a peace worked out. But that has to come after the fighting, as war is part of the negotiation, politics by other means as Clausewitz said. Many Ukranians might strangely be prepared to fight hard to ensure their families are not raped or kidnapped or tortured, and to be in a position where they are forced to give up the least territory and turn themselves into a prickly fortress no one wants to invade their home again. Just as Finland did through the Winter War.
Donbas and Kyiv have been at war for eight years. Whether you blame the Russians or the West for escalating it to this point depends for most people on which side's propaganda they get exposed to. I don't believe that anyone wants the missiles to keep flying... except for the people sitting back in protected and comfy positions, making a lot of money and political power from those missiles.jyng1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 amHave you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).
There's going to be lot more dead Russians before this is over.
You didn't answer the question. Do you know anybody living there? And I don't care if FSB Colonel Igor Girken and his Little Green Men invaded the Crimea 8 years ago in the confusion after the Revolution of Dignity.puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:16 pmDonbas and Kyiv have been at war for eight years. Whether you blame the Russians or the West for escalating it to this point depends for most people on which side's propaganda they get exposed to. I don't believe that anyone wants the missiles to keep flying... except for the people sitting back in protected and comfy positions, making a lot of money and political power from those missiles.jyng1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 amHave you talked to anybody living there? The ones I talk to have no desire to talk to Russia (even the Russians in Ukraine). They hate them all with a vengeance (Particularly the ones who got woken up this morning with a hypersonic missile that the air defence didn't pick up).
There's going to be lot more dead Russians before this is over.
The video I posted above shares a perspective from a journalist living there, in Donbas. The people there seem to be mostly pro-Russian. Those referendums saying so seem about as legitimate to me as Western polls saying that Ukrainians want more war. I don't really care if you're friends with people in Kyiv who want the fighting to continue. Anyone who supports war should be the one to suffer from it, but that's never how it works.jyng1 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:05 amYou didn't answer the question. Do you know anybody living there? And I don't care if FSB Colonel Igor Girken and his Little Green Men invaded the Crimea 8 years ago in the confusion after the Revolution of Dignity.
No Ukrainians are going to talk to Putin until he gets out of Ukraine... and a recent YouGov poll of 25 countries found that almost all Western Countries agree with them.