Neurodivergence & INTPness

Worldly and otherworldly topics
djm
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:08 pm
Location: Woodplumpton
Formerly: djm

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by djm » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:56 pm

elfsprin wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:18 pm
Feel free to comment on any facet of this that comes to mind.

My specific question is: do you consider being an INTP to be inherently neurodivergent?

I didn’t used to, but I do now.
Yes.

When I first started getting involved in the site (several incarnations ago) I had recently discovered MBTI and it helped me understand myself a little, and put me in touch with others more like me. This was a big help during a difficult period in my life.

In the next difficult period in my life I was diagnosed with autism. I happen to think there is a very large crossover with 'INTP symptoms' and 'Autistic traits' these days.

Now I don't happen to think either are a anything more than an improvement on the general human condition, however I do realise that both give us (INTP / Autistic) issues to deal with.

User avatar
Light Leak
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:56 pm

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by Light Leak » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:54 pm

I don't think having an INTP personality is the same thing as being neurodivergent. It might be a rarer personality but I think neurodivergent is more about how your brain actually works. Like does it impact your ability to do everyday things that aren't a problem for other people? I'm not sure that having an INTP personality alone does that.

User avatar
elfsprin
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:11 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by elfsprin » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:49 pm

Light Leak wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:54 pm
I don't think having an INTP personality is the same thing as being neurodivergent. It might be a rarer personality but I think neurodivergent is more about how your brain actually works. Like does it impact your ability to do everyday things that aren't a problem for other people? I'm not sure that having an INTP personality alone does that.
Does it seem appropriative to you for an INTP to claim ND, or are you moreso thinking it just doesn’t fit (without an ethical component)?
Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity - Simone Weil

User avatar
Light Leak
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:56 pm

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by Light Leak » Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:57 pm

elfsprin wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:49 pm
Does it seem appropriative to you for an INTP to claim ND, or are you moreso thinking it just doesn’t fit (without an ethical component)?
I don't think it's the same thing. I think an INTP can be neurodivergent, but I don't think being INTP is the same as being neurodivergent. I think neurodivergent is more a term for people with autism, ADHD, or executive function disorders.

User avatar
elfsprin
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:11 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by elfsprin » Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:56 pm

Light Leak wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:57 pm
I don't think it's the same thing. I think an INTP can be neurodivergent, but I don't think being INTP is the same as being neurodivergent. I think neurodivergent is more a term for people with autism, ADHD, or executive function disorders.
I have lots of thoughts heh

So It's commonly said that 'being INTP' and being on the spectrum are functionally indistinguishable. I think that's true of immature INTPs/youths.

When I first learned about MBTI I had it in my mind that the ideal would be to 'become' xxxx as one aged and matured. That's an interesting perspective because it suggests your type can change aka isn't inherent. For MBTI in general, I don't think of it as something that is inherently, objectively true - I think it's a useful framework to use for various reasons. And I think it conveys a lot of useful information and can convey truths.

I am not done growing and maturing of course, but I have grown a lot over the years. Such that I might not 'come off' as INTP immediately anymore. I still think of myself as INTP though, rather than xxxx.

In youth/immaturity, I do see INTPs as ND. As one example, emotions are so suppressed / superseded by thoughts that it can drastically impair the ability to function in normative society.

Does maturing make an INTP more NT? Does being autistic but learning/growing/finding workarounds make an autistic person less ND and more NT?

One more thought then I'll stop to keep it short-ish though I have other things to say lol.

I myself have been called autistic or neurodivergent by many folks (just people out in the world, not actual professionals). I'm of the age where both 1. people weren't really tested for autism much when I was young, and 2. AFAB people were not considered for autism diagnosis as much. So, I've never been tested but it's possible I'm on the spectrum. It's completely possible that this could influence how I perceive INTP-ness and its relationship to neurodivergence.

I matched with a person who has Asperger's on Tinder about a month ago. She comes across as very hurt, lonely, and definitely in need of some care and community. Most of our chatting has been her unburdening herself of her frustrations with human interaction. For example, she is trans and feels dehumanized because other trans people she matches with start off the convo by asking about things like how long she's been on HRT, or if she's had surgery, etc.

For folks unfamiliar, it's considered rude to ask those kinds of questions especially upfront, by most trans folks. So, she feels like she's being treated rudely by other trans people and therefore they must see her as less-than-human/less-deserving of respect. She also considers this to be a clear sign of hypocrisy etc. etc.

Engaging with her is tiring for me, but I want to help lift her up if I can. So I chat back.

One (very possibly misguided?) thing I said recently was "It sounds like it hurt you to be treated those ways. Your feelings are valid. I can't speak for others. And of course I could be wrong. But: if other trans folks are doing those things, it might be because they feel it creates solidarity. Like I get that folks are upset when cis people do it to trans people, but it could be possible that trans folks are doing it with you not because they are being hypocritical, but because they think as a fellow trans person, when they do it to you it's ok -- because it's often a shared experience that they themselves have empathy for. Whatever the reason, if you don't like it you have the right to say so, and to have that boundary respected."

I said this because I thought that considering this behavior from a different perspective might bring her some healing/help her to think about it in a different way and it could possibly make social interactions easier/less painful.

It's implicit in my reasoning there that I think folks on the spectrum could, via logic/thinking, gain new perspectives in an NT type of way. Just like an INTP could mature and grow and thereby find it easier to function within normative society.

But maybe that's ableist of me? Or maybe it shows that I'm definitely not on the spectrum and don't understand that experience of being on it? I think if you asked any person 'confirmed' to be on the spectrum, you'd get different answers. Similar to how their is a debate about the ND/NT terminology itself amongst 'confirmed' autists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity
Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity - Simone Weil

User avatar
Light Leak
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:56 pm

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by Light Leak » Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:32 pm

elfsprin wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:56 pm
In youth/immaturity, I do see INTPs as ND. As one example, emotions are so suppressed / superseded by thoughts that it can drastically impair the ability to function in normative society.

Does maturing make an INTP more NT? Does being autistic but learning/growing/finding workarounds make an autistic person less ND and more NT?
Yeah, I don't know about all the stuff you said. I've never really been good at understanding all the cognitive functions in MBTI and I'm not even entirely sure that I am INTP, but when I took the test that's what I got. The INTP description seemed to fit me the most, but it's never felt completely accurate for me. I guess I just see MBTI as a way to try to understand someone's personality and from what I understand it's kind of outdated and not used professionally very much anymore.

Also, is having issues functioning in society as a youth an INTP specific thing or just an immaturity thing in general?

I was diagnosed with ADHD within the past year and for me that seemed to explain my differences and certain problems I have functioning in society better than the INTP label has. I mean maybe that just makes more sense to me and the INTP thing makes more sense to other people. I don't know. Just the ADHD thing makes sense to me because it explains certain ways that my brain works differently than what's considered normal. I have also wondered if I was on the spectrum before, but I've never been tested for that.

From my perspective, MBTI functions (P vs J, etc.) are presented more like personal preferences so I thought it kind of explained why I have trouble with deadlines and getting things done, but now I'm not entirely sure working that way is a real preference for me. This is how I tend to work, but it causes a lot of stress and anxiety for me. It makes me wonder if I'm really P at all. Do people who are truly P feel fine about getting things done last minute?

For me the ADHD thing makes more sense because it explains issues I have with getting started with things, and how I get overwhelmed by doing tasks that seem easy for most other people. Would I still put these things off if I didn't have these issues? I could be wrong, but I feel like other INTPs put things off for other reasons and not because they feel too overwhelmed by the task or don't know where to start.

User avatar
elfsprin
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:11 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by elfsprin » Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:17 pm

Last time I tested, which was over a decade ago lol, I got a 54% preference for P over J. My other percentages are really high, in the 90s (and I remember I tested 100% I vs E a couple times).

I feel fine about getting things done last minute. I feel good about procrastinating, aka I don’t stress about it, because I have confidence that when I get closer to a deadline I will magically find motivation. It hasn’t failed me yet. It might be about to fail me, in the realm of choosing a job/getting money :ph34r: We’ll see.

One thing comes to mind with the topic of getting things started. Analysis paralysis is commonly attributed to INTPs as a reason something is hard to start. IDK but maybe that’s a form of ND.

Conversely finishing or committing long term to things… INTPs are said to feel fine abandoning a thing once they feel they’ve mastered it sufficiently. There’s not a need to bring that thing to fulfillment / prove to others it’s been mastered / devote oneself to the thing. That strikes me as a form of ND that can make it more difficult to navigate in normative society.

Anyway, good thoughts/convo.
Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity - Simone Weil

User avatar
Light Leak
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:56 pm

Re: Neurodivergence & INTPness

Post by Light Leak » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:38 pm

elfsprin wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:17 pm
One thing comes to mind with the topic of getting things started. Analysis paralysis is commonly attributed to INTPs as a reason something is hard to start. IDK but maybe that’s a form of ND.
Yeah, I don't know if analysis paralysis is a ND thing. It could be. I never really gave that much thought.

I know my getting started issues are deeper than just analysis paralysis though. All the decisions can already be made and I can know exactly what it is that I need to do and for whatever reason I just can't get started doing it. It can even be something that I want to do and I still can't get started. Just the act of starting to do something can be a challenge for me. It's hard to explain.

Post Reply