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Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2022 9:11 pm
by puerile_polyp
Senseye wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:21 am
puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:08 am
What does a brain do that is sufficient to create consciousness? It has sensory inputs, the ability to think, memory, a set of instructions that tell it to want to live and reproduce, outputs to interact with the world. If I create these things with electronics, a computer with a camera and wheels and arms, will it be conscious?
Possibly. I am not sure you could instill a will to live into a non-biological creation, but it may be possible. If so, I would not be surprised if the resulting creation acted conscious. At least, I would expect it to act in its own interest, which it itself would determine. I am considering an independent will to be consciousness in this case.
An experiment would likely provide some interesting results.
Independent from what? You are created with a set of instructions (DNA) that tell you to survive and reproduce. You have inputs from your environment, and you have outputs. Do you have a will that is independent of all of that?
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:30 pm
by Buttrock as zen
I don't think there's a meaningful qualitative difference between myself and a lobster- it's just a matter of complexity. I think humans have been on the dunning kruger slippy slide since the beginning fawning over ourselves with species chauvinism. This is not to say that our brain isn't literally the most complex thing we know of in the universe, nor is it to say we even understand a fraction of its vagaries. Organic chemistry is a huge example of this. We're still years away from being able to create a fake leaf, so how would we be any closer to creating something that runs on neurotransmitters? However, I still think it will eventually be a big equation, albeit an impossibly complex one with some unknowns left.
I'd also explain the species chauvinism, and all the resultant branches of philosophy, theology, linguistics, as being a function of life itself. We have to think we're special to reproduce- both in the specific individual sense and in the collective sense. We are the most sophisticated problem solving machines we've ever experienced, desperately attempting to stay alive.
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:13 pm
by JohnClay
Buttrock as zen wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:30 pm
I don't think there's a meaningful qualitative difference between myself and a lobster- it's just a matter of complexity.
People can build fires, computers, and visit the moon.... can lobsters do things like that to any degree at all?
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:52 pm
by ashi
I believe the expression is "a question obscene in its very conception".
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:28 am
by puerile_polyp
Buttrock as zen wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:30 pm
I don't think there's a meaningful qualitative difference between myself and a lobster- it's just a matter of complexity. I think humans have been on the dunning kruger slippy slide since the beginning fawning over ourselves with species chauvinism. This is not to say that our brain isn't literally the most complex thing we know of in the universe, nor is it to say we even understand a fraction of its vagaries. Organic chemistry is a huge example of this. We're still years away from being able to create a fake leaf, so how would we be any closer to creating something that runs on neurotransmitters? However, I still think it will eventually be a big equation, albeit an impossibly complex one with some unknowns left.
I'd also explain the species chauvinism, and all the resultant branches of philosophy, theology, linguistics, as being a function of life itself. We have to think we're special to reproduce- both in the specific individual sense and in the collective sense. We are the most sophisticated problem solving machines we've ever experienced, desperately attempting to stay alive.
If we created leaf, we could observe and test that it's a living leaf. How would we ever do this with a consciousness? How can we be sure we haven't already created a consciousness? What makes you even think that things with brains are conscious? What does a brain do that creates consciousness?
It's one thing to not be able to figure out how to create it, it's another to not even know what it is. Doesn't it seem intuitively that it's deeply tied to the question of "why" are we desperately trying to stay alive?
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:44 pm
by Buttrock as zen
puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:28 am
If we created leaf, we could observe and test that it's a living leaf. How would we ever do this with a consciousness?
Really depends on how you define consciousness- if it means awareness of self and surroundings, yeah that's a real low bar. I would agree with both the definition and the implication, that consciousness is not something remotely unique to humanity.
puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:28 am
Doesn't it seem intuitively that it's deeply tied to the question of "why" are we desperately trying to stay alive?
That's my point- consciousness is a sub function of life.
JohnClay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:13 pm
People can build fires, computers, and visit the moon.... can lobsters do things like that to any degree at all?
Lobsters can do stuff we can't do. I grant that those are qualitative differences between species, but do our particular differences somehow mean we have an extra component?
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:18 am
by Yesterday
This man deserves a response.
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:40 am
by puerile_polyp
Buttrock as zen wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:44 pm
Really depends on how you define consciousness- if it means awareness of self and surroundings, yeah that's a real low bar.
Okay, if you define it like that, what is the test for whether something is conscious?
I would agree with both the definition and the implication, that consciousness is not something remotely unique to humanity.
Do you think it's unique to organic life?
That's my point- consciousness is a sub function of life.
How does consciousness help us live? Wouldn't it be just as good or better if we weren't conscious, but just biological machines with advanced brains processing stimulus response? Like a very advanced robot that behaves like one of us.
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:57 am
by Utisz
Consciousness is as consciousness does. Either that or it's a category error.
I dunno. I find the whole solipsism angle to be an unnecessary attack against object permanence. I find it inelegant.
Sure, there might be some deus ex machina lurking out there to take a dump on the final act, but if I found out that I was the only conscious being in the universe, I'd be wanting to speak to a manager or something.
Re: Are you the only conscious being in this universe?
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:00 pm
by puerile_polyp
puerile_polyp wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:28 am
I'd also explain the species chauvinism, and all the resultant branches of philosophy, theology, linguistics, as being a function of life itself. We have to think we're special to reproduce- both in the specific individual sense and in the collective sense. We are the most sophisticated problem solving machines we've ever experienced, desperately attempting to stay alive.
Why do we need to be conscious of anything in order to prioritize our own survival? I could program a robot to attempt to preserve itself and reproduce. It doesn't need to feel anything or have any internal experience of existence.